debate The fight for .ORG: is it about MONEY or is it about CONTROL?

Rob Monster · Dec 10, 2019

As some here are aware, I previously presented the bullish case for .ORG:

https://www.namepros.com/threads/why-i-am-bullish-on-org-plutocratic-guilt.1161692/

Although I remain bullish on the .ORG TLD as a domain asset class, there is now a footnote on .ORG because of the change of control event and the precedent that it represents for a major registry.

In the wake of organized backlash against the Ethos/PIR.org deal from capable organizations such as EFF, it appears that propagandists are makeing a case for "nothing to see here". For example note this article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/05/opinion/dot-org-domain.html

This article was written by a Stanford undergrad with a Stanford prof as the byline. Fade Chehade is a Stanford alum. This looks like a propaganda instrument. In fact, I put the odds at 90:10 on that.

Ultimately, I am not convinced that this is not about money. After all, Donuts is not exactly killing it since Abry took over. However, they now control a whopping 242 TLDs. These people are not stupid nor are they lazy.

Fadi is a globalist and an elite technocrat. He has a keen understanding of power, governance and realpolitik. I believe he is entirely sincere about what he thinks it is at stake. Check out his short TED interview:

https://www.ted.com/talks/fadi_cheh...itizens_can_do_to_claim_power_on_the_internet

The timing of this talk was curious. September 2018 is when the digital censorship programs went into overdrive. As some folks know, I was on the front line of that when Godaddy booted Gab.

Fadi wants "Geneva conventions", "technocratic oaths" and "stewards" for acceptable use.

Fadi also comments on Artificial Intelligence. He is absolutely right. Most folks have no idea how much impact AI combined with structured data, wireless broadband, and open standards is going to change the word.

People with access to domains, hosting and vast libraries of open source code, are capable of wielding remarkable things. The tools are already amazing. I believe AI is also in the process of being democratized.

As power of internet publishing gravitates to individuals, the framework for governance on the Internet comes down to the gatekeepers, of which domain registries play a critical role for at least the next 10 years.

Blockchain is plodding along to create a decentralized alternative. It is not ready for prime time yet. However, domains can become more resilient. That is where Epik is focused.

Now that the main industry pundits have had their commentary on .ORG, I am curious to hear what the open source community has to say about the .ORG transaction and its implications. Let's hear it.

Rob Monster · Dec 12, 2019

tonyk2000 said:
And/or shutting down or deaccrediting some registrars Such as easydns:
https://easydns.com/blog/ - interesting reading.
Also:
https://easydns.com/blog/2019/12/06/its-called-f-you-money-for-a-reason-why-isoc-sold-org-to-vcs/
written by Mark E. Jeftovic

Looks like Mark connected the dots too. Big fan of @easyDNS.

tonyk2000 · Dec 12, 2019

Rob Monster said:
Looks like Mark connected the dots too. Big fan of @easyDNS

EasyDNS is NP member? What a great forum we have. Privacy-respecting registrars like Epik and EasyDNS are presented. Hope they will survive regardless

Internet.Domains · Dec 12, 2019

Internet.Domains said:
If the alternative blockchain protocols (decentralized web) evolve into mainstream certainly it would be bad for centralized, or those who invest in DNS, domainers. Although, those who invest in blockchain domains may do well. Opportunity is not gone, it just goes somewhere else.

With the rise of the blockchain decentralized web there are two issues that are immediately superior than the current system. First, domains can be "Forever" without renewals (one extension). Two, decentralization is prioritized.

ICANN and other companies surrounding DNS, Http(s), and TCP/IP are making the biggest case for the decentralized web. These companies and organizations have displayed corruption, censorship, unfair legalities, unrealistic privacy policies/ToS.....If the decentralized web happens, it's because those in charge of the current system has abused their power.

As I mentioned, ICANN is fueling the fire to drive away from DNS.

"DNS is an antiquated artifact of the early internet. It cedes control to privileged entities and unnecessarily extracts value from companies and individuals," said Matt Branton, CTO of Neutral.

"The .org sale should be a wake-up call that ICANN is largely concerned with ICANN, and we should ask ourselves some hard questions about what value they are really providing. The technology exists to replace them, we should do that," he said.

https://www.coindesk.com/planned-sale-of-org-angers-many-open-source-crypto-developers

Rob Monster · Dec 12, 2019

Internet.Domains said:
As I mentioned, ICANN is fueling the fire to drive away from DNS.

"DNS is an antiquated artifact of the early internet. It cedes control to privileged entities and unnecessarily extracts value from companies and individuals," said Matt Branton, CTO of Neutral.

"The .org sale should be a wake-up call that ICANN is largely concerned with ICANN, and we should ask ourselves some hard questions about what value they are really providing. The technology exists to replace them, we should do that," he said.

https://www.coindesk.com/planned-sale-of-org-angers-many-open-source-crypto-developers

In the interest of preserving the integrity of the domain economy, and avoiding a giant footnote on large sections of the domain asset class, it is definitely wise to be vigilant to changes in both ownership and governance.

Specific to DNS, I would not write it off. Rather I would focus on making it more resilient. The technology is very much battle-tested.

Looking ahead, I think registrars should be thinking about their purpose and function in the relationship between domain owner and their audience. The sale of a domain name comes with a promise to route.

Specific to Epik, we have made some heavy investment in resiliency and the infrastructure required to route a domain name, come hell or high water, to the extent that the domain is copacetic with our ToS.

As of this writing, I believe we are the only company in the world with integrated technology for each of the following layers in the internet delivery stack:

Registry (Epik)
Registrar (Epik)
Resilient hosting (Epik)
Anycast DNS (Epik)
SSL/TLS - intermediate Root CA. (DNEncrypt)
DDoS mitigation (BitMitigate)
Content Delivery Network (BitMitigate)
ASN, BGP, IPv4 and IPv6 (Sibyl Systems / Anonymize)
VPN (Anonymize)

The last big step is the so-called Toki project which deploys physical network-attached devices (Toki servers) literally in the field, operating as last-mile internet access points using ~$60 Toki servers.

If push comes to shove, we do have so-called Alt TLDs fully operational. A number of folks have been buying them even though they only route if the Anonymize VPN or DNS resolver are enabled.

Let's hope cooler heads prevail and that Draconian actions vis-a-vis nullrouting and sinkholing do not become commonplace. My advice to any publisher is to dig your well before you're thirsty.

johnn · Dec 12, 2019

Information or promotion?
I am confused.

oldtimer · Dec 12, 2019

What effect do you all think the New gTLDs are having on the situation with .org , I mean when and if non-profits move to .NGO or Crypto companies start using .Crypto

IMO

Rob Monster · Dec 12, 2019

johnn said:
Information or promotion?
I am confused.

It is information. It is also demonstrative.

As for information:

I am going to assume that the PIR.ORG is fait accompli. The EFF's of the world will do some kind of controlled opposition but the deal will happen because the laws of governance allow it regardless of objections and public outrage. The propaganda machine will bless it, and indeed it is already working on it.

As for demonstrative:

Some folks operate on theory and concept. I prefer "Completeness of Vision" and "Ability to Execute". I am suggesting that all registrars do their bit to make the internet delivery supply chain more resilient against arbitrary takedown based on change of policy. Forever registrations are a good place to start.

Rob Monster · Dec 12, 2019

oldtimer said:
What effect do you all think the New gTLDs are having on the situation with .org , I mean when and if non-profits move to .NGO or Crypto companies start using .Crypto

IMO

When there are more independent registries, it should mean more options for digital sovereignty. Keep it in mind, registries can disposition a domain at will, even if the registrar or registrant thinks otherwise.

This has happened in some cases, and sometimes in bulk, e.g. due to some alleged malware outbreak.

If you ever came across this DNS:

SC-D.SINKHOLE.SHADOWSERVER.ORG
SC-A.SINKHOLE.SHADOWSERVER.ORG
SC-B.SINKHOLE.SHADOWSERVER.ORG
SC-C.SINKHOLE.SHADOWSERVER.ORG

That is a sinkhole operation where the domains are nullrouted, often for an extended period of time, meaning that the registrant can own it but it is inoperable.

From a legal standpoint, a cooperative registry is desirable since the sinkholing operation is dependent on the willing cooperation of the registrar or registry who then take the heat from the registrant.

There are surely legitimate cases where this can be justified. Where it gets ugly is when you have agencies with endowed authority like MPPA Trusted Notifier program who are not required to undergo due process but basically get a free pass on takedown orders.

EFF had a relevant piece:

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/10/eff-icanns-registries-dont-pick-censors-pen

oldtimer · Dec 12, 2019

johnn said:
Information or promotion?
I am confused.

I believe I and other members here are learning from these discussions,

If we were discussing car safety it would be expected that a few car makes and models might be mentioned, discussed, and analyzed specially if one of the car manufacturers was participating in the discussions here.

But I agree with you that certain threads and comments that are specifically made for promotion should be placed in the appropriate sections of the forum.

IMO

bmugford · Dec 12, 2019

It is about money and power. Money leads to power and vice versa.

Sign the petition - https://savedotorg.org/

Lox · Dec 12, 2019

Erik Brooks (operator)

ethoscapital.com (Founder, Boston)

abry.com (Managing Partner)
Abry (Boston) jumped on IT wagon and did a thing or two or 7 together with the Berkshire Partners (Boston)

nchcapital.com (Vice President)
Investors in Eastern EU and Russia

bsgclearing.com (Board member)
Flip Flop $

musicreports.com (Board member)

nexstar.tv (Board member)

etc

Verisign stands alone. The last bastion of freedom of t domain names movement (read aftermarket). BUT there is a change coming in Q3> 2020 (drop catch game, premium and a few of cybersecurity related improvements including IP and TM screening). Let's see. Till then, Bye.

Bob Hawkes · Dec 12, 2019

I think we all should be concerned with concentration of DN control in too few hands. I liked the split off of .org for that reason. We don't know all of the funders, but I agree this is at least potentially worrying.
Bob

Rob Monster · Dec 12, 2019

Lox said:
Verisign stands alone. The last bastion of freedom of t domain names movement (read aftermarket). BUT there is a change coming in Q3> 2020 (drop catch game, premium and a few of cybersecurity related improvements including IP and TM screening). Let's see. Till then, Bye.

Thanks @Lox. Don't leave us hanging like that. You are going to have to spill a bit more there.

Lox · Dec 13, 2019

Rob Monster said:
Thanks @Lox. Don't leave us hanging like that. You are going to have to spill a bit more there.

F.e. Today, Dec 13, 2019, one of the VS patents has been activated (in use); Collecting the historical data and analyzing behavior of each domain name including info related to website content data and functionality (PPC, Landing, For sale landing, In-use/corporated, etc), DNS changes, DNS traffic, DNS functionality... etc is used for determining chances of a domain name registration renewal / drop... etc

Regards

Bob Hawkes · Dec 13, 2019

Lox said:
F.e. Today, Dec 13, 2019, one of the VS patents has been activated; Collecting the historical data and analyzing behavior of each domain name including info related to website content data and functionality (PPC, Landing, For sale landing, In-use/corporated, etc), DNS changes, DNS traffic, DNS functionality... etc is used for determining chances of a domain name registration renewal / drop... etc

Regards

What you are hinting at sounds really important and interesting but, maybe it is just me

, but I am still not clear on exactly what your reference is to.

Don't all or many of the registries already use those parameters in predicting renewal probability for each domain? Certainly in his keynote at NamesCon 2019 the Radix CEO said they tracked website status, traffic, for sale status, registrant region, keywords, price paid for initial registration, etc. for every single domain name in their registry to predict renewal rate, and have been doing that for years. It seems similar to what you are talking about unless I misunderstand.

Bob

Ostrados · Dec 13, 2019

Can someone explains to me how decentrilized web related to .org?!

You dont need domains or DNS at all for decentrilized website, it can be built simply on a network of IPs

correct me if I am wrong

Lox · Dec 13, 2019

... to understand a whole picture, you’ll have to dive deep into each of the drop catch related (Multiple) patents , interconnected by innovator/s (for reasons). Generally speaking, it is build up to exclude/ eliminate many of specialized drop catch companies . Above is just an example ... activated today. No furthermore explanations.

Regards

Bob Hawkes · Dec 13, 2019

Lox said:
it is build up to exclude/ eliminate many of specialized drop catch companies

Beginning to grasp significance.... thanks for the added information.
BTW is there one public domain article that talks about the newish Verisign patents somewhere?
I realize I could search them out on the patents site one by one, but wondering if someone has already written a commentary on them.
Bob

Internet.Domains · Dec 13, 2019

Ostrados said:
Can someone explains to me how decentrilized web related to .org?!

You dont need domains or DNS at all for decentrilized website, it can be built simply on a network of IPs

correct me if I am wrong

Decentralized web is exact opposite of .org, which is now a shining example of what happens with a centralized system. On one end of the spectrum you have decentralized web, on the other end you have DNS (ICANN). If ICANN and DNS is not working for people, where do you think people will go?

kriss05 · Dec 13, 2019

While it is very lucrative to vote for Money or Money and Power, i voted for mostly Control. If one is trying to make such a dirty deal and openly saying f*ck you all to all of us by calling oneself "ethos", one should have have strong political backing imho.

tonyk2000 · Dec 13, 2019

Lox said:
F.e. Today, Dec 13, 2019, one of the VS patents has been activated (in use); Collecting the historical data and analyzing behavior of each domain name including info related to website content data and functionality (PPC, Landing, For sale landing, In-use/corporated, etc), DNS changes, DNS traffic, DNS functionality... etc is used for determining chances of a domain name registration renewal / drop... etc

Regards

I banned verisign ips from my landing pages long time ago. Together with bot homes like ovh and hetzner.
All of them were too active, wasting traffic and cpu. In verisign case, this must be the reason...

biggie · Dec 13, 2019

Rob Monster said:
Looking ahead, I think registrars should be thinking about their purpose and function in the relationship between domain owner and their audience. The sale of a domain name comes with a promise to route.

Specific to Epik, we have made some heavy investment in resiliency and the infrastructure required to route a domain name, come hell or high water, to the extent that the domain is copacetic with our ToS.

As of this writing, I believe we are the only company in the world with integrated technology for each of the following layers in the internet delivery stack:

Registry (Epik)

Registrar (Epik)

Resilient hosting (Epik)

Anycast DNS (Epik)

SSL/TLS - intermediate Root CA. (DNEncrypt)

DDoS mitigation (BitMitigate)

Content Delivery Network (BitMitigate)

ASN, BGP, IPv4 and IPv6 (Sibyl Systems / Anonymize)

VPN (Anonymize)

The last big step is the so-called Toki project which deploys physical network-attached devices (Toki servers) literally in the field, operating as last-mile internet access points using ~$60 Toki servers.

If push comes to shove, we do have so-called Alt TLDs fully operational. A number of folks have been buying them even though they only route if the Anonymize VPN or DNS resolver are enabled.

so, what does above have to do with whether the fight for .org is about money or control?

johnn said:
Information or promotion?
I am confused.

it was informative,
then came the subtle lead-in to what services OP believes, that they are only registrar who provides such.
which in itself is promotional, because nobody asked about them.

when that happened, then to me.... it is about getting more money, having more power and more control over members domain names.

how about keeping the .org issue as the subject and not get sidetracked into what services OP can provide?.

imo....

Ostrados · Dec 13, 2019

Internet.Domains said:
Decentralized web is exact opposite of .org, which is now a shining example of what happens with a centralized system. On one end of the spectrum you have decentralized web, on the other end you have DNS (ICANN). If ICANN and DNS is not working for people, where do you think people will go?

Exactly .org is opposite of decentralized web!

So the only relation I found is controlling .org to push for decentralized web? is that the conclusion of this thread?!

TBH it is laughable idea, .org is not the web, for someone to do that they must control .com at least and that would be just tiny fraction of things that need to be controlled (ex: they must control ICANN). Also how can they push for decentralized web by controlling .org? by making it expensive?! that wont work either the only thing it will do is making .org less attractive for domainers, end users will still use it.

Rob Monster · Dec 13, 2019

Ostrados said:
Exactly .org is opposite of decentralized web!

So the only relation is controlling .org to push for decentralized web? is that the conclusion of this thread?!

TBH it is laughable idea, .org is not the web, for someone to do that they must control .com at least and that would be just tiny fraction of things that need to be controlled. Also how can they push for decentralized web by controlling. org? by making it expensive?! that wont work either the only thing it will do is making .org less attractive for domainers, end users will still use it.

Control is conferred by deciding who gets routed. As legislation or policy changes, registries are gatekeepers that can decide what gets routed or not routed.

Sites that are not visible on the public internet are relatively irrelevant. Most are not going to bother figuring out how to use the decentralization technologies as long as they can find TMZ, or whatever distracts them.

You have to think a few steps ahead. If the objective is control, then first secure the asset, then set its governance, and then start adjusting the goalposts around acceptable use, accreditation, etc.

My point referenced above is that this is not about .ORG. It is shaping up to be a relatively predictable multi-act play, which I described as an Italian menu.

Internet.Domains · Dec 13, 2019

Ostrados said:
is that the conclusion of this thread?!

No conclusion on my part, just discussion. As I posted, the .org/ICANN debacle has started a push to decentralization outside of the domain industry. So this isn't the only place its discussed.

debate The fight for .ORG: is it about MONEY or is it about CONTROL?

The real reason for the .ORG change of control event is about: Sort by votes

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Control - The right to determine who gets routed on the public internet

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