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discuss Gun Laws

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Bernard Wright

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This is just a hodgepodge of thoughts. I won't distinguish between good and bad people. I'll focus on peoples' actions.

Bad actors shouldn't have guns for committing acts of violence against innocent people, nor for threatening innocent people with potential violence. It would be nice if society could prevent a bad actor from obtaining the gun used in a bad act.

Good actors should have the right to defend themselves and others against bad actors with necessary force. Such force includes the threat of lethal violence, and the use of lethal violence if necessary.

Bad actors don't have regard for the rule of law when acting in a criminal manner.

Society is comprised of individuals pursuing their own interests. Laws are instated to ensure that individuals' rights are not infringed upon by another person or entity. When an individual infringes upon another individual's rights, there are criminal and civil procedures to deal with such matters, overseen by our governing officials. In extreme cases, when the infringing party is a usurping government, it is up to the citizens to protect their natural freedoms from that government. This happens rarely, but it happens. It is wise for an individual to aspire to maintain his/her own personal sovereignty and ability to protect him/herself from unjust threats.

A good actor is responsible for protecting him/herself and, if desired, other people from threats and acts of violence. When police officers are capable of assisting, assistance is welcomed, but the police's main duty is to maintain law and order, not to protect another individual from immediate threat. The individual's primal concern is his/her own personal safety, and this is a responsibility that lies within every individual when faced with a threat of violence.

A gun is a tool. A gun can do a number of things. Here are three examples.

1. a gun can be used to engage in a violent act.
2. a gun can be used to deescalate/end a violent act.
3. a gun can be used to deescalate/end a threat of violence.

We are all players in society with an interest in pursuing our best interests and defending our well-being. Laws that would take guns away from some bad actors are sure to also result in fewer armed good actors who could deescalate violent and potentially violent situations. Violence is not good. Good actors with guns end violent situations more quickly and effectively than good actors without guns do. There are hundreds of millions of firearms on this planet. A bad actor with the desire to obtain a gun will always have the means to locate a gun. Black markets are real.

Good actors should have the legal right to possess guns in order to protect themselves, and others, from bad actors.
 
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... the accountability must be done with laws.

Yeah, about that...

It doesn't seem to be working out too well in liberal California. (Talk about "relaxed laws...")

https://ktla.com/2019/08/08/suspect...hy-criminal-record-police-chief-blasts-ab109/
In addition to being horrific, Garden Grove Police Chief Tom DaRe said the violence should have been preventable...

"This person should have been in prison and not allowed to be in our community committing these violent acts," DaRe said. "Based upon on his prior arrest record, he is a violent individual who should have never been considered for early release based upon Assembly Bill 109."

Under AB 109, also known as California's Public Safety Realignment of 2011, felons designated "non-violent, non-serious and non-sex offenders" are eligible to serve their time in county jails, rather than state prisons. Upon release, county probation departments are then responsible for keeping track of the offenders under a program called post-release community supervision, rather than state parole agents.

According to Orange County Superior Court records, Castaneda has numerous prior convictions, and was out on bond awaiting trial in several cases at the time of Wednesday's violence.

His prior felony convictions date back a decade and include seven violations of post-release community supervision probation between 2016 and 2018, records show.

He was convicted of possession of drugs sales in 2016, as well as possession of an assault weapon, possession of a firearm with drugs, four counts of possession of a firearm by a felon, possession of ammunition by a felon, two counts of possession of drugs for sales, possession of marijuana for sales, auto theft and receiving stolen property in 2014. Castaneda was convicted of domestic violence causing severe bodily injury in 2009.

Castaneda's criminal past should have removed him from the public long ago, DaRe said.

"As a police chief, I implore our policy makers to reevaluate their policies on criminal justice," DaRe said.

"The pendulum has swung so far that it is increasingly difficult to keep our communities safe from the rise in violent crime," the chief said. "California law enforcement agencies have been crippled by Assembly Bill 109, and offenders are not being held accountable for their crimes."
 
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Lots of interesting points there @TestCase, particularly the ones comparing guns to tobacco and alcohol. However that's a separate debate entirely, so for the sake of staying on point and keeping the discussion from getting out of scope, let's start with this:

I would say YOUR "logic" is incomplete as well. My stance is YOUR arguments fail to factor in the social, economic, and cultural issues in the US that makes the situation here - and/or those of every other country - different than those of any other country.
This seems to be a go-to argument for those who support the legal ownership of handguns and assault weapons. But I've never read a clear explanation.

Could you expand on this? What is it about the US that is so unique from other countries so as to put the country in a position of needing to arm the general population in such a way?

If we can establish that, then we can move on to discussing if gun ownership is really the best solution.
 
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Unfortunately, I have to head out the door for the next several hours so I'll have to address more of your question later on, but let me quickly respond to this part of your post.

Lots of interesting points there particularly the ones comparing guns to tobacco and alcohol. However that's a separate debate entirely, so for the sake of staying on point and keeping the discussion from getting out of scope...
If the honest and entire issue with guns is about saving lives and preventing injury, then I can't see how the other topics can be seen as being separated from the overall picture of achieving these goals.

The other topics all result in death and injury (assuming serious illness falls within the realm of injury) at similar or, in some instances, higher rates than guns. Yet I don't see "normal" people giving up their cars, panicking when someone lights up a cigarette (well, except in CA & NY - but are they really "normal"...lol) or calling the police when someone walks in to a bar after parking their car because that person MIGHT come out drunk. At this point in time I don't see headlines day after day crying for the immediate abolition of alcohol, cig's, high speed limits, etc...

They all do damage to society at similar rates so why shouldn't they all be addressed with equal ferver and sense of urgency?.

Be back later today or tomorrow to continue this discussion.
 
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Unfortunately, I have to head out the door for the next several hours so I'll have to address more of your question later on, but let me quickly respond to this part of your post.


If the honest and entire issue with guns is about saving lives and preventing injury, then I can't see how the other topics can be seen as being separated from the overall picture of achieving these goals.

The other topics all result in death and injury (assuming serious illness falls within the realm of injury) at similar or, in some instances, higher rates than guns. Yet I don't see "normal" people giving up their cars, panicking when someone lights up a cigarette (well, except in CA & NY - but are they really "normal"...lol) or calling the police when someone walks in to a bar after parking their car because that person MIGHT come out drunk. At this point in time I don't see headlines day after day crying for the immediate abolition of alcohol, cig's, high speed limits, etc...

They all do damage to society at similar rates so why shouldn't they all be addressed with equal ferver and sense of urgency?.

Be back later today or tomorrow to continue this discussion.
I agree that everything you mentioned has its own issues with regards to public health. However, each one would require its own discussion to fully delve into the very different considerations. I'd prefer to focus the discussion on the merits or drawbacks of gun ownership itself, rather than get distracted by those comparisons of entirely separate problems.
 
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I digress.
 
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@Joe Nichols

While I'm formulating a response to your question, I'd like to ask the following of you.

Acknowledging Canada has significantly fewer mass shootings than the US (along w/ fewer guns per capita), if by chance you were to find yourself actually caught up in one of these rare active shooter situations at an office complex or in a mall, and found yourself taking refuge in an office/rest room/closet/etc because you couldn't escape in time, would you rather that all of those trapped with you be unarmed or would you feel at least a bit more secure if at least one of them had a gun?

I hope you will be 100% honest in your reponse. Whatever your answer, I promise I won't ask you to explain your reasons.
 
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My state of Texas has some of the most lax gun laws in the US, I conceal carry, we have open carry allowed but i have never wanted to open carry and see very very very few people ever open carry.

More stringent background checks could help, if a person can legally purchase a firearm they would have no problem with a more stringent check process.

I did not oppose when assault weapons were banned , i wouldn't oppose if assault weapons were banned again. Although it can be argued the .223 AK47 can be used to deer hunt with, people don't hunt with a AK47 or AR15 assault "Military" firearm, i have never seen anyone hunt with an assault rifle in all my years of hunting. so i see no need for civilians to really own assault rifles or assault hand guns such as Tec9 or a mac10 . these are military spec weapons that really have no use in civilian society IMO.

Although their would be many who feel as if they are loosing a right in an assault weapons ban, it would be giving up that right to purchase an assault rifle for the better of society.

High capacity magazines in a standard hand gun really play no difference, a hand gun with a 16+1 magazine capacity vs a 10 round magazine really makes no difference, a standard hand gun accuracy with rapid fire is very inconsistent IMO
 
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@Joe Nichols

While I'm formulating a response to your question, I'd like to ask the following of you.

Acknowledging Canada has significantly fewer mass shootings than the US (along w/ fewer guns per capita), if by chance you were to find yourself actually caught up in one of these rare active shooter situations at an office complex or in a mall, and found yourself taking refuge in an office/rest room/closet/etc because you couldn't escape in time, would you rather that all of those trapped with you be unarmed or would you feel at least a bit more secure if at least one of them had a gun?

I hope you will be 100% honest in your reponse. Whatever your answer, I promise I won't ask you to explain your reasons.
That's a tough question to answer. In the moment, of course my instinct would be to want a gun. But the point of law is to make decisions for the betterment of all society, not to create a net loss for society in order to make people feel better in rare situations.

Am I glad the US has nuclear weapons as a deterrent to other countries? Of course. Would I prefer that all countries disarmed? Hell yes.

Law is reason free from passion. So your question, while thought-provoking, should not factor in.
 
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That's a tough question to answer. In the moment, of course my instinct would be to want a gun. But the point of law is to make decisions for the betterment of all society, not to create a net loss for society in order to make people feel better in rare situations.

Am I glad the US has nuclear weapons as a deterrent to other countries? Of course. Would I prefer that all countries disarmed? Hell yes.

Law is reason free from passion. So your question, while thought-provoking, should not factor in.
Thanks for the honest answer!

Still working on a response...

In the mean time, based on the current uproar about guns and the demand for their abolition, I'd say that the making of any new gun laws in the near future will definitely NOT be free of passion or be based solely on reason.

Our country's history is littered with laws that were created based solely on passion and fear.

Examples -
  • The laws that criminalized interracial marriage.
  • Those that criminalized homosexual sex.
  • And to get a little more current, the "get tough" drug laws of the 80's and 90's that have put people in prison for years including thousands for what are now considered minor drug offenses.
At the time, I'm sure "everyone" thought these laws were based upon "reason" (maybe even the "science" of the times), but in reality they were societal knee jerk reactions created to solve/prevent issues that scared people and meant to penalize otherwise innocent people.
 
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Thanks for the honest answer!

Still working on a response...

In the mean time, based on the current uproar about guns and the demand for their abolition, I'd say that the making of any new gun laws in the near future will definitely NOT be free of passion or be based solely on reason.

Our country's history is littered with laws that were created based solely on passion and fear.

Examples -
  • The laws that criminalized interracial marriage.
  • Those that criminalized homosexual sex.
  • And to get a little more current, the "get tough" drug laws of the 80's and 90's that have put people in prison for years including thousands for what are now considered minor drug offenses.
At the time, I'm sure "everyone" thought these laws were based upon "reason" (maybe even the "science" of the times), but in reality they were societal knee jerk reactions created to solve/prevent issues that scared people and meant to penalize otherwise innocent people.
Agreed that it's best not to make laws based on purely emotional reactions. Better to let statistics and common sense be the driving forces for change. And when possible, examine other changes that have been put into place in other countries to get a sense of what might be expected in the short and long term.
 
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Common sense checking in.

In a setting where fewer people have firearms with which to defend themselves, a would-be assailant has less potential opposition, and in such a setting it is rational to expect violent crimes to increase. If any of us were to find ourselves in the scenario posed by @TestCase, of course we would want to at least be among those with firearms, and perhaps have one or two of our own. It is our God-given right to protect ourselves in such cases.

We are not going to legislate our way into an age of nonviolent enlightenment. Stricter laws, and less guns among those who would use them for good, means those who would use them for bad have less opposition. The reality is, evil exists. There are more guns than people in the US, and some of those people will have access to lethal weapons. Should you be faced with one of those people, nobody has the right to tell you you cannot defend your life and the lives of those you care about. Your bus driver cannot take that right away, your priest cannot take that right away, and the government cannot take that right away. In that situation, it is you, the assailant, and your maker that have a say in the matter.

I'm willing to bet none of us here panhandle for drugs. It's unlikely that we raise roosters or dogs for illicit fights. I could go on. There are an innumerable number of degenerate paths that humans among us take. Keep your compass pointed nobly and righteously. And don't be naive. Evil is real, and it is your right to protect what is good.
 
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Common sense checking in.

In a setting where fewer people have firearms with which to defend themselves, a would-be assailant has less potential opposition, and in such a setting it is rational to expect violent crimes to increase. If any of us were to find ourselves in the scenario posed by @TestCase, of course we would want to at least be among those with firearms, and perhaps have one or two of our own. It is our God-given right to protect ourselves in such cases.

We are not going to legislate our way into an age of nonviolent enlightenment. Stricter laws, and less guns among those who would use them for good, means those who would use them for bad have less opposition. The reality is, evil exists. There are more guns than people in the US, and some of those people will have access to lethal weapons. Should you be faced with one of those people, nobody has the right to tell you you cannot defend your life and the lives of those you care about. Your bus driver cannot take that right away, your priest cannot take that right away, and the government cannot take that right away. In that situation, it is you, the assailant, and your maker that have a say in the matter.

I'm willing to bet none of us here panhandle for drugs. It's unlikely that we raise roosters or dogs for illicit fights. I could go on. There are an innumerable number of degenerate paths that humans among us take. Keep your compass pointed nobly and righteously. And don't be naive. Evil is real, and it is your right to protect what is good.
Bernard, that's a lot of talking just to say that you deserve to own guns because some people are bad. We've covered that argument already in this thread. I'm not going to spend time proving you wrong again.
 
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I’ll state it more concisely. When an assailant brings a gun to a gun fight, only a fool would opt to not have a gun. It is immoral to disarm those who wish to protect themselves from evil. It is foolish to expect laws to affect the behaviors of those who wish to enact evil upon others.

You haven’t proven anything. You have made it clear that you recognize a problem, an undesirable level of violence involving guns, but you have not described how laws will solve the problem. My contention continues to be that the problem will not be solved by the introduction of more laws. I’ve explained in detail why more gun laws might even exacerbate the problem. It’s a possibility that should be taken seriously.
 
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I’ll state it more concisely. When an assailant brings a gun to a gun fight, only a fool would opt to not have a gun. It is immoral to disarm those who wish to protect themselves from evil. It is foolish to expect laws to affect the behaviors of those who wish to enact evil upon others.

You haven’t proven anything. You have made it clear that you recognize a problem, an undesirable level of violence involving guns, but you have not described how laws will solve the problem. My contention continues to be that the problem will not be solved by the introduction of more laws. I’ve explained in detail why more gun laws might even exacerbate the problem. It’s a possibility that should be taken seriously.
If law can't affect behaviour then why bother having them at all? Let's live in anarchy.

I already responded to this argument earlier in the thread. If you want to go back and respond to the points I made, please feel free.
 
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If you go to the England a long developed old Country, the police don’t carry, but their citizens they get run over by rented trucks, get cut with a knife and receive horrible acid attacks. So where there are crazy people as there always are everywhere, they will find a way to hurt others. Innane Laws have nothing to do with it.
 
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If you go to the England a long developed old Country, the police don’t carry, but their citizens they get run over by rented trucks, get cut with a knife and receive horrible acid attacks. So where there are crazy people as there always are everywhere, they will find a way to hurt others. Innane Laws have nothing to do with it.
As the saying goes...

It's better to have a gun and not need it than to not have one and need it.
 
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Guns are a joke. Absolutely no need for them to exist.

If protection is the issue, why can’t civilians own/drive tanks and own automatic weapons? The argument for guns can’t be that they are for protection if you outlaw forms of defense that are superior.
 
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As the saying goes...

It's better to have a gun and not need it than to not have one and need it.

“Peace through superior firepower”.
 
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Guns are a joke. Absolutely no need for them to exist.
Assuming you're not being sarcastic, then why do police and body guards for celebrities/politicians/rich people/etc need them?
 
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Guns are a joke. Absolutely no need for them to exist.

Go buy a liquor store and operate it from 4-12 midnight in some ghetto neighborhood, then report back to us in 5 years if you still are around.
 
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Go buy a liquor store and operate it from 4-12 midnight in some ghetto neighborhood, then report back to us in 5 years if you still are around.
You wouldn’t need bullet proof glass if bullets didn’t exist.

So yes, if someone wants the money out of my register they’ll get a bat to the head. You’ll say that the bad guys will always have guns which is a bs argument.
 
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...If protection is the issue, why can’t civilians own/drive tanks and own automatic weapons? The argument for guns can’t be that they are for protection if you outlaw forms of defense that are superior.
Civilians ARE able to own automatic weapons. It just requires more money and I believe a deeper background check.
https://gun.laws.com/automatic

The argument for guns can’t be that they are for protection if you outlaw forms of defense that are superior.
I
OK, I'm a bit confused here.

Are your saying the only acceptable time to defend one's self with a gun is when confronted with superior firepower??? And since civilians aren't allowed to own anything more advanced than a gun, then that negates their viability as a defensive weapon???

Yeah, the logic escapes me at the moment. But maybe I'm mis-reading/misunderstanding what you've posted.

The argument for guns can’t be that they are for protection if you outlaw forms of defense that are superior.
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And of course we know how well criminals and crazies abide by laws...
 
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And of course we know how well criminals and crazies abide by laws...
This!

With this argument we simply don’t need laws. After all, criminals and crazies won’t follow.

What you just said should wipe all laws away, in fear that “bad” people won’t comply. Do you realize or understand how idiotic that approach is?!
 
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You wouldn’t need bullet proof glass if bullets didn’t exist...
But they do exist - along with the weapons that send them down range - and you can't turn back the clock.

...So yes, if someone wants the money out of my register they’ll get a bat to the head....
HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA... Stop it Keith! You sound like all the overcompensating gun owners that think they'll go full Rambo and rain hell down on anyone that comes at them.

...You’ll say that the bad guys will always have guns which is a bs argument.

  • A study of persons arrested for a wide range of crimes showed that a higher percentage of arrestees than regular citizens own firearms. Arrestees are also more likely to be injured or killed by gun violence. Within a community, this amounts to an identifiable group of “career” offenders.
 
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...With this argument we simply don’t need laws. After all, criminals and crazies won’t follow....
Wow! Tremendous counter-argument you've got there, NOT!

Actually, I'd say that laws help provide us with a baseline for judging who the more dangerous or problematic members of society are.

...Do you realize or understand how idiotic that approach is?!
And yours as well?!?!?!
 
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