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Bob Hawkes

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I hope that this can be a thread around the issue of professional behaviour on NamePros, including but not limited to, bullying. I would ask that this is a thread about principles and ideas and suggestions related to the issue, and is not the place to rehash what anyone did or did not do.

So, I would like to start off with these points that I hope we can discuss:
  1. I think unintentionally most of us are bullying sometimes on NPs.
  2. I think our community would be better and stronger if we could eliminate bullying.
  3. I think we can eliminate it.
  4. Eliminating it is not as hard as we might think.
  5. Rather than hamper meaningful discussion, removing bullying will make the discussion more valuable.
I know some will immediately disagree with calling it bullying, but please read my next post with an open mind. Others will say, yes there is some bullying but only by a tiny minority. It is not something I am part of the problem in. I am not so sure. Note that I said unintentionally.

The really exciting part is I am totally convinced we can do this! I was not even sure 24 hrs ago. I had a sleepless night and day to think more and interacted with various people. But we can together do this!

Some may be saying, but will this help me sell domain names? Surprisingly, at least long term, I think the answer is yes!

I welcome all NPs members, yes all one million of you, to work with us in doing this. It will be faster, easier and more positive than you probably think. This is not an us and them situation. I absolutely hope everyone will get on board.

Bob
 
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The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
Personally if anyone doesn't have thick skin then maybe they shouldn't get into any debates here. If a person takes the time to write a long opinionated post then they must know that some will like it and some will not.

Any good discussions have those that are positive about what you are saying and those that are negative about what you are saying. If you become annoyed at the person just unfollow them.

I have been here 8 years and have been in some pretty heated discussions and only recently decided to unfollow someone. Only one person in 8 years. I got annoyed and said instead of continuing to fight back and forth it's easier to unfollow them for a while to cool off. You have to know when to walk away. The like and dislike button should stay.
 
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If we left any label out of it, I was wondering if we could find agreement around the idea that every NPs member has the right to be dealt with fairly?
 
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I have seen the line crossed.

I saw an argument as usual about the .whatevers. Data on both sides presented, and argued. Nothing more. What did I miss?

Bullying? Really, then where? Like 3-4 people asked on the other thread, but nobody posted the offensive posts! Any screenshots? DM me, buddy please. I am usually on the same page as you on many things as you know. So it must be pretty bad for you to say this.

The only place I have seen what some faint hearted might be offended is in the Political thread. You know as well as I do. Name calling back and forth and that sort of thing. Not too many can handle the Snakepit.

The interaction that occured I followed quite abit, but evidently the posts were rapidly erased, if not please do link to them. Someone on another thread mentioned that “people in professional offices and suits dont do this”, I dont recall exactly their quote, but that is simply naive to say that, and from inexperience in real business. I have sat through board and technical meetings that virtually nobody agreed, arguments occured, etc. its business. Its about money, losses, bad decisions, stock prices, bad valuations, bad sales forecasts, qc issues, you name it. That even goes for large supposedly exemplary “Good” Corporations like GE. Which is a misnomer. I have been there done that.

If someones business experience is like a School teacher these sort of heavy conversations and business things don’t occur, perhaps this is the issue?
 
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I saw an argument as usual about the .whatevers. Data on both sides presented, and argued. Nothing more. What did I miss?

Bullying? Really, then where? Like 3-4 people asked on the other thread, but nobody posted the offensive posts! Any screenshots? DM me, buddy please. I am usually on the same page as you on many things as you know. So it must be pretty bad for you to say this.

The only place I have seen what some faint hearted might be offended is in the Political thread. You know as well as I do. Name calling back and forth and that sort of thing. Not too many can handle the Snakepit.

The interaction that occured I followed quite abit, but evidently the posts were rapidly erased, if not please do link to them. Someone on another thread mentioned that “people in professional offices and suits dont do this”, I dont recall exactly their quote, but that is simply naive to say that, and from inexperience in real business. I have sat through board and technical meetings that virtually nobody agreed, arguments occured, etc. its business. Its about money, losses, bad decisions, stock prices, bad valuations, bad sales forecasts, qc issues, you name it. That even goes for large supposedly exemplary “Good” Corporations like GE. Which is a misnomer. I have been there done that.

If someones business experience is like a School teacher these sort of heavy conversations and business things don’t occur, perhaps this is the issue?
Yeah, me and you are on the same page with most subjects. We have similar ideologies. I don't think this would be different.

The posts were removed (deleted) fairly quickly, so referencing them is not an option. The posts were demeaning, derogatory and obviously disrespectful. It crossed the line.

There really is no industries that would put up with this kind of behavior. I know others may feel differently, but I don't see a justification for such behavior.

I also feel that because the posts were removed, and not shown now, that we shouldn't be calling a victim of a bully as "sensitive" and "not thick skinned" etc....(not that you did that. I am speaking in general).........I hope everyone can move on and just disagree and debate as a professional.
 
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Thank you for your views @offthehandle. I should perhaps speak up because I think I am the author of what you meant by referencing not happening in other environments. At least one other person has said essentially what you did, that in real businesses it happens all the time. I agree that probably my statement about this not happening elsewhere can be debated or was inaccurate.

While I have worked in educational settings, I also have worked in retail, publishing, research, government, wholesale trade, running a small business, and a few other things (mainly a long time ago). My comments were made mainly though with the comparison to research environments. People argue at least as strongly as here in those environments, and hotly disagree on many things, but there also is agreement on a basic level of acceptance of others and courtesy. Also there is a huge emphasis on being accurate and truthful. Anyway, as I said, I accept the views of others that lack of professional interaction may be common in some environments.
The only place I have seen
As I and numerous others have said, there is nothing left that is objectionable. But really, it is not about one thread, but rather, could our environment be more fair and respectful in everything we do without losing anything in the value of the sharing of opinions and information. I think so.
You have to know when to walk away.
I agree entirely.

I have been thinking carefully (and read a few times) about what you wrote @biggie
when engaging in the business of domaining. so, as it relates to domaining, that's the standard of being professional.

now, if in a discussion that is not about us buying or selling to each other, then it's just general topic,
so I can be blunt and straight forward and express opinions in such a way, that makes it hard for you to swallow.
I do see the logic that when we are operating as a business we set business professional standards, but when operating in here we set different, social media I guess, standards. That is logical. It might get muddied sometimes, because there are domain transactions conducted here, then it is business, but that is in different threads of course. I guess it comes down to how we view NPs. If we view it as a place to learn about domains, even though we don't pay costs, then the standards of an educational setting, like maybe a noncredit free community course, might apply, and those would still have professional standards. Anyway, it is an interesting view that you brought up. Thank you. I also want to make clear that we are not talking about any problem with being blunt, it is the next step, of being belittling, overly personalized or misrepresenting views that is the line, at least in my view.

Thanks again for everyone's contributions. I realize that the issue is one that there are strong opinions, on various sides, and respect that.

Bob
 
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This is a technical question for @Paul Buonopane:
If NPs decided it was a good idea, would it be technically possible to have that once a post was formally reported that post would disappear until the mods had decided if it was objectionable? If it was deemed not objectionable, then it would then reappear of course. The advantage of this is that untrue or libelous material would not remain in public view for a period of time.
 
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This is a technical question for @Paul Buonopane:
If NPs decided it was a good idea, would it be technically possible to have that once a post was formally reported that post would disappear until the mods had decided if it was objectionable? If it was deemed not objectionable, then it would then reappear of course. The advantage of this is that untrue or libelous material would not remain in public view for a period of time.

Technically, yes, but it's not realistic; there would be little to prevent people from hiding content for malicious purposes. They could shape an argument to their liking, for example. We have a limited number of moderators, so it could be some time before the posts got restored.

One solution we've discussed is the possibility of hiding content by default if it has a sufficiently high percentage and number of downvotes, much like Hacker News and Stack Exchange. Established members would still be able to view it, but it would be hidden by default. There are numerous technical issues we'd have to work out, though--for example, what happens if someone quotes a hidden post?
 
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Ok, I tried to read all the posts but realized time (and my life) is ticking away.

I've lurked here for years and finally joined a couple years ago. One of the reasons I have liked it here so much is its clean appearance and straightforward like/dislike/thank/ignore choices.

As a child I was bullied but not as much as some of my friends. Typical kid stuff...taunts by bullies to start a fight (my daddy is bigger than yours, we have a nicer car, etc.) and if that did not work the bullies would escalate to physical abuse such as slapping, punching, etc. I could generally hold my own but some of my more timid and more gentle friends had it a lot worse. As I grew in size and learned some fighting techniques I quickly turned the tables and began defending those that could not defend themselves. Bullies learned quickly to avoid me or anyone coming to me for help...the bullying started in elementary school, ran through high school and a little thereafter. (I was raised to never start a fight and I never have, but I usually finished them once someone attacked me physically)

That was PHYSICAL bullying and here we are talking verbal...between adults no less. The 'bullies' here have been handled well in the past by users and the staff; and unless namepros plans to reduce mods, I have all confidence things will continue to work out.

Let the community shine a light on those not participating in a helpful, constructive and/or positive manner by calling them out in the threads like they have been for years. Either those posting overly negative will change their ways or be ignored by other users until they are out of existence. We (namepros users) have the report button to bring the worst offences to the attention of the mods.

It is unfortunate that any persons feelings get/got hurt, but unless a threat has been made it is just the new and wonderful (sarcasm) social media world we live in...we sometimes have to pull through garbage to find the gems.
 
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Technically, yes, but it's not realistic; there would be little to prevent people from hiding content for malicious purposes. They could shape an argument to their liking, for example. We have a limited number of moderators, so it could be some time before the posts got restored.

One solution we've discussed is the possibility of hiding content by default if it has a sufficiently high percentage and number of downvotes, much like Hacker News and Stack Exchange. Established members would still be able to view it, but it would be hidden by default. There are numerous technical issues we'd have to work out, though--for example, what happens if someone quotes a hidden post?

See I think that is the better way Paul, just upvotes and downvotes and if a post hits a certain number of downvotes it disappears, you can click the little view button if you want to see it but it's out of forum view.

That way no one hurt by dislike/disagree and no one playing the other side and just getting likes for saying Hello or Welcome to a new member. I have literally had people say they never participated in welcome threads but then saw that you just had to type "Welcome" and get more likes then when they wrote an informative post.

So maybe up vote/down vote is the way to go after you have time to research the coding time and potential security problems.
 
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Maybe we should have a topic where everyone can vent and blow off steam after a hard day. :xf.laugh:

To kind of address what Bob and Paul were talking about, I think that's not realistic because someone may say "my domain is worth 10k" and half the people visiting will say dislike, as in no way.

The only way such an idea could work is if there were another button similar to thank that said watched or something similar. Then only long standing members... lets say vip and above could click that and if it was clicked 3 times the post would hide until a moderator looked at it.

It would have to be so that at least 3 established members agreed to avoid any misuse of the feature.
 
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Sometimes there is really good content and just because it is off topic it gets deleted. That is annoying as heck, one will be in the middle of a conversation and when you come back its all gone.
I had mentioned once before that splitting into two topics was ideal and I used that on a previous forum I ran. Now given I have seen namepros do that a bit as of late and I give kudos to that but there needs to be a lot more topic splitting and less deletion in my opinion.
We do split off secondary topics into their own threads when we feel it makes sense to do so (although, we receive pushback from doing that sometimes, too).

There are a few primary reasons we may not move the post/s (and instead choose to delete):
  1. The post/s violate other rules that moving will not fix.
  2. We do not want to encourage more drama.
  3. It would take too much time to cohesively move the conversation elsewhere.
    • This is why it's important for members to do this work because as moderators, we only have a limited amount of time to handle these things ourselves. Some threads would take days of work to accomplish this, and that's just not practical without an army of moderators that we don't have.
  4. We forget. In this scenario, if you feel strongly that good content was deleted and should have been moved to a different existing thread (or made into its own thread), then please contact us and let us know. Chances are very good that we will restore the content and move it. We don't want to lose valuable content either.
We hope that helps.
 
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I think I am the author of what you meant by referencing not happening in other environments.

No actually it wasnt your post it was someone who uses purple text, thats all I recall.

While I have worked in educational settings, I also have worked in retail, publishing, research, government, wholesale trade, running a small business, and a few other things (mainly a long time ago).

That’s kinda what I thought. Govt and research have no p/l stress, unlimited time, lots of inter politic stuff, stacks of regulations, rules of conduct, organizational charts, written directives, etc. Unless you have had P/L responsibility in a small corp, you probably havent seen it or the stress involved with Upper mgmt demands, etc. I have been involved early in my pre self employment in medium and large corporations where we had angry customers, whom I had to go out and calm them down. I dealt with some really callous people, and thats simply life. We were losing money and the old tech had shitty software tools, some bad designs here and there and super complex specs and witnessed many confrontations, especially in hostile takeover like environments. My Engineering mgr boss died in his 50’s of stress related illness. Another boss was pushed out, layoffs all the time, etc. We had some real huge battles with various sets of mgmt. Thats the beauty of self employment and being your own boss. Pick and choose who to do business with.

Bottom line, is that some discussions are best to avoid and some people are not your own style or thinking and its not worth arguing about or with. Imho, the new gtlds are like that. Like arguing over religion. Its not really easy to provide logic when its more of a belief and based on personal experience. No reason to debate beliefs.

Keep posting whatever you want, I read it all, but please ( if you can) dont request more rules and bureaucracy here. Thanks.
 
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Bottom line, is that some discussions are best to avoid and some people are not your own style or thinking and its not worth arguing about or with. Imho, the new gtlds are like that. Like arguing over religion. Its not really easy to provide logic when its more of a belief and based on personal experience. No reason to debate beliefs.

Spot on and over the last 15 years here I have seen that from all sides. There are certain topic, certain members, you are wasting your time, you are never going to get any recognition of your point, with some you are not going to get even basic professional behavior. It's just not worth debating because eventually you need to question your own sanity. A friend here who did not participate in the .live regging years out thread and the thread that spawned the Shout Out, actually in a friendly way texted me, "F U why did you tell me to read those threads? Life is too short man." A lot of the times the juice is just not worth the squeeze because a lot of people don't want your help or your views, they just want your money. No money, no interest.
 
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One factor that we might be overlooking is the difference between the sections of NPs that are open to Google search and those that are not. I could see a somewhat looser standard for the break room section.

Also, the majority of people do not use real identities. The impact of saying something untrue or belittling about someone, or saying something highly critical that is really just your opinion but expressing it as though it were fact, has potentially much more serious consequences when it is about a person with a real identity in a way anyone even those outside the domain community might come across.

While we can debate whether real identities are a good idea or not, and there are arguments both ways, I think the rules need to take into account that many do use real identities, even if not in their username as part of their signature to their website their real identity is clear.

Bob
 
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Also, the majority of people do not use real identities.

BINGO, BINGO, BINGO

There will NEVER be any semblance of peace as long as people can go incognito.

That is why more and more sites require a verified google or facebook account to post.

I said many times in previous posts that marketplace should be restricted to anyone without a verified identity. That could be business or personal. MyID.ca in Canada requires documents, drivers license and such before you can ever participate in the marketplace. I am in agreement with that, it almost eliminates fraud.
 
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Dislike and Disagree are two totally different things depending on what context they are used. If I said I liked blue cars you can't Disagree with me because that's MY true opinion but you can Dislike that I don't like blue cars.

When someone presses the Dislike button they do it and most of the time are done. If you change it to Disagree it will make more members want to say why they Disagree with what you are saying.

The Dislike button is sort of like slamming your fist. It releases a bit of frustration about something. The Disagree button will not have that same feeling. Switching it to Disagree will only increase the bullying attacks since most will add their opinion more freely which will lead to more heated discussions.

I think it is ridiculous that people can't handle a little confrontation. Having the conversation is fine but wanting to change it without really giving yourself time to think it through is ridiculous. Watch this subject for a month. Analyze the data. Don't just switch it right away. This is not how you implement correct change.

Just for the record I am not wanting to keel the Dislike button because it's something that I use. I never use it. Very rare. I want to keep it because it's the right thing to do.

i originally put this comment in another thread and also posted it here.
 
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Watch this subject for a month. Analyze the data. Don't just switch it right away. This is not how you implement correct change.
Others have expressed this view too and i totally agree. Don't quickly do something NPs without time for consideration and input by those who want to.

You have raised issues I had not thought of re disagree and dislike. I think, long term, it may be that we need more than one or the other, as has been noted by others. I think something like disagree would be a non-confrontational option for people to express that they don't agree with an idea or analysis without being as strong as the embedded meaning dislike has (and is seldom used).

Bob
 
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Others have expressed this view too and i totally agree. Don't quickly do something NPs without time for consideration and input by those who want to.

You have raised issues I had not thought of re disagree and dislike. I think, long term, it may be that we need more than one or the other, as has been noted by others. I think something like disagree would be a non-confrontational option for people to express that they don't agree with an idea or analysis without being as strong as the embedded meaning dislike has (and is seldom used).

Bob
I Disagree with what you said but I don't Dislike what you said. Big difference in the two words.
 
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How can you say there was no bullying with a straight face!
xKKi1Nrh.jpg

Even someone not smart would quickly realize
that this is at best, insulting verbiage, from you.

Compare to:
iT4Y7Wuh.jpg

where you said
You are not disparaging at all. And you are right


So I'd just have to repeat what I said:
I am not sure that we need to beat this dead horse further, this issue of bullying when there was none.
other than perhaps, by you.


Can't we all just get along? I actually tried to message you to see what you have in mind, what is wrong, but you don't even allow anyone to message you.
 
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Hi xynames, It is not correct that I earlier stated I was being bullied, strangely when I posted that I was alluding 100% to BOB HAWKES and never even considered myself a victim. With that said, the large graphics posted by a few members on me saying I am a liar and words saying that were untrue and certainly not appreciated!

It is also odd why you think I have PMs disabled when I do not and never did. Also when I said my .best thread was a top-secret it was obviously a joke and I had smiley faces on the post plus if it was a real top secret why did I announce the secret! A lot of incorrect allegations and conclusions! Anyway, sure let's move on and not dwell on it all. I actually like you xynames.
 
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