discuss We Must and Can Fix This

Internet.Domains said:

I will stay away from the definition of bullying as that was accurately described at the beginning of this thread. So I will focus on the opposite, treating people with respect and kindness.

If you are unsure if you are possibly bullying, ask yourself, "Am I being respectful and/or exhibiting kindness?"

If your debating, especially when passionate, and you are not being respectful or kind, there is a chance it could be considered bullying, by definition.

So if you want to debate, which Namepros is known for, it's very important to remain respectful and kind while defending your position.

One thing that is definately not bullying is being respectful and kind. If you show respect and kindness, you can be assured it's not bullying.

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I disagree. If you are making an argument there is absolutely no requirement to be kind.
You can present an opinion or argument that stands on its own merit without any emotion involved.

I will generally be respectful unless there is a reason not to be.

Some forum utopia is not realistic. Small improvements might be possible, but people have different goals, backgrounds, opinions, etc. Any forum with differing opinions will have heated discussions from time to time.

Brad

bmugford said:

How about some actual examples of what you consider bullying?

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Calling what someone did is asinine, crazy, silly
Saying untruthful things about other people
Calling belittling names
Saying untruthfully, or implying, that people are just hyping in service of some one else
Deliberately misrepresenting things said
Saying that people are working together when they are not
Saying people are #### who need to be brought into line
Saying the person has no sense and just says nothing
Belittling accomplishments of others in a demeaning way
(these are paraphrased)

I know some of these bother some people more than others. To me, and I agree maybe this is not bullying exactly but it is certainly unprofessional, I find saying things that are untrue and misrepresenting what was said are the ones that bother me most. I worked 3.5 decades in an environment where being truthful was important. I think it should be here.

Anyway, I know the debate is not with you Brad. You have always gone out of your way to be professional. Blunt and direct at times but always accurate, truthful and respectful. I really appreciate that.

Bob

Bob Hawkes said:

Calling what someone did is asinine, crazy, silly
Saying untruthful things about other people
Calling belittling names
Saying untruthfully, or implying, that people are just hyping in service of some one else
Deliberately misrepresenting things said
Saying that people are working together when they are not
Saying people are #### who need to be brought into line
Saying the person has no sense and just says nothing
Belittling accomplishments of others in a demeaning way
(these are paraphrased)

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Right, I get the general idea. I was more looking for actual examples on the forum.

Since is going to be a different bar for everyone, I was just looking for some actual examples as I rarely see what I would call "bullying".

So if someone makes ridiculous claims you are supposed to just be kind and say nothing?
If they are hyping some product in an obvious misleading or deceptive way you should just say nothing?
You should never question anyone's claims about their accomplishments, no matter how outlandish or unsubstantiated?

I just don't agree with those general statements in every situation.

Brad

I haven’t really noticed bullying on this forum, at times I do see people gang up on a seller if they are trying to defraud the forum with a name they don’t own, and for that they have it coming.

This forum is pretty respectful from others I have seen online. To bully is more so to pick on someone for no reason at all. In discussions things can get heated, we are talking about monetary instruments here, but I think all fair points can be made. Sometimes people call others out, and ask them to back up statements, as they are protecting another side of the forum, especially where newbies can read, and lose money based on incorrect facts.

If this is between xy and his words on that undocumented gtld page, I have seen a lot of xy interactions on the forums, I think he is a detail oriented, hard facts kind of guy, but always polite, but on point.

Gtlds tend to get blood boiling at times, as many have seen a lot of people lose money, and you really need advanced knowledge to invest in them, based on so many variables so people tend to speak up, and warn others about this.

I think the move namepros did to make sure facts are stated was the right one, hopefully everyone can move forward, and not take it so personally, as I don’t think it was meant to belittle, but more so force the facts.

bmugford said:

I disagree. If you are making an argument there is absolutely no requirement to be kind.

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Your right it is not a requirement and that is partly why society is dealing with the issue, especially amongst children. I am also not saying it should be a requirement.

For the sake of Namepros, if your going to be professional, hold a special badge, or you hold a high position of power or knowledge, it is most important to treat people with respect and kindness. Otherwise a toxic culture develops.

With more power comes more responsibility.

bmugford said:

So if someone makes ridiculous claims you are supposed to just be kind and say nothing.
If they are hyping some product in an obvious misleading or deceptive way you should just say nothing?
You should never question anyone's claims about their accomplishments, no matter how outlandish or unsubstantiated?

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NO definitely you need to speak up in those situations!
The problem is people assume some cases are those when they are not.
If you think they are hyping a project (i.e. secret compensation) you should directly ask if they have any association with the product being promoted. I personally feel we should require that disclosure.
By the way re kindness, I agree it is too high a standard, but always good to see. As long as there is truth and respect I am totally alright. I think any fair minded person would find that I was not given truth nor respect in some, a very few, of the content now gone. It was a discussion about renewal rates, so it is not a matter I was trying to hype this or any other extension. But anyway, the thread is over sanitized now and I don't want this about me, but really I still ask, is telling the truth, being respectful and not misrepresenting things really too much to ask? You meet that standard always, Brad. Why not agree others should meet those standards?
Bob

Internet.Domains said:

Your right it is not a requirement and that is partly why society is dealing with the issue, especially amongst children. I am also not saying it should be a requirement.

For the sake of Namepros, if your going to be professional, hold a special badge, or you hold a high position of power or knowledge, it is most important to treat people with respect and kindness. Otherwise a toxic culture develops.

With more power comes more responsibility.

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Yeah, well another issue with society today is every kid gets trophies and awards for doing absolutely nothing outstanding. Maybe it breeds a thin skin and sense of entitlement.

There is a big difference between actual, objective bullying and just feeling bullied in an unreasonable manner.

I try to act in a respectful manner, unless there are extenuating circumstances (AKA if you are dealing shit expect to get it back).

Brad

bmugford said:

Yeah, well another issue with society today is every kid gets trophies and awards for doing absolutely nothing outstanding. Maybe it breeds a thin skin and sense of entitlement.

There is a big difference between actual, objective bullying and just feeling bullied in an unreasonable manner.

I try to act in a respectful manner, unless there are extenuating circumstances (AKA if you are dealing sh*t expect to get it back).

Brad

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I agree. I am not a fan of the "participation" trophy/awards philosophy either. We see a lot of that recently.

However, my disagreement about the participation philosophy does not give me an excuse to be disrespectful or unkind and it definately does not change the definition of bullying.

Bob Hawkes said:

I think any fair minded person would find that I was not given truth nor respect in some, a very few, of the content now gone. It was a discussion about renewal rates, so it is not a matter I was trying to hype this or any other extension. But anyway, the thread is over sanitized now and I don't want this about me, but really I still ask, is telling the truth, being respectful and not misrepresenting things really too much to ask? You meet that standard always, Brad. Why not agree others should meet those standards?
Bob

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I did not really read through the thread.
My only involvement was posting in regards to renewing domains ahead of time in general.

I do agree others should generally not be a dick. At the same time who decides what is acceptable as it is so subjective?

If someone is making some wild claim, and I call it out in a skeptical way, am I now bullying?
Someone might consider that as bullying.

Brad

I will also say, I do see why lolwarrior got some push back and negative comments to that thread.
In my view it seems more like a humble brag post than a post involving any real discussion.

https://www.namepros.com/threads/af...d-my-whole-live-portfolio-until-2025.1136623/

You are claiming a big sale without any other info, then make a comment like this -

"....and I am not bragging about it Still lot of CASH left as profit. Kudos to new gTLDs, love them!!!"

That just does not seem like a thread created for actual discussion IMO.

With that said, I still made comments on the subject.

Brad

bmugford said:

I do agree others should generally not be a dick. At the same time who decides what is acceptable as it is so subjective?

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The most common type of bullying I have witnessed is members with more experience, knowledge, sales history, etc. belittle or "put down" someone with less experience, knowledge, sales history, etc.

Bullying can be subjective pending the circumstances, but if those in the higher position try to use respect and kindness they can be assured it is not bullying.

Being skeptical and seeking further clarification is not bullying. Although seeking clarification while "putting down" would be a classic sign of bullying.

For those with more status (experience, knowledge, sales history etc.) there is greater responsibility to use respect and kindness, otherwise they may not be the "professional" they think they are.

Can we flip the script? There is stuff that comes from the other side too,

Making a statement about success, personal or that of an obscure extension, where there is not much Market Research Evidence. And no proof provided by the initial poster.

People caught in outright lies, there was at least one super duper thread where someone had basically said they had made other sales of equal value to their well documented big sale. Later on they basically outed themselves and someone pointed out, you said you had other sales of that price, they replied nope just that one. Then someone showed them where they wrote it and their reply was something along the lines of ehh not dealing with the negativity or the trolls. No one trolled the member forgot their own lies. Do I want them lynched for that? Absolutely not, but don't make it like people who quoted you and you voided your own quote are haters or trolls.

There are some people who have been outed that trust me the thread started slow, if no one could mention anything that at the current time was unfounded, that member would have gotten away with it.

Every stolen name that has been tried to be auctioned or sold here, started out with an accusation without concrete proof.

Members who ask for an appraisal and then get cocky when they don't like the comments of reg fee or $20, are they bullying the people who took the time to reply? I would say not bullying but certainly unprofessional like @Internet.Domains mentioned.

I agree with you 100% people should not belittle any sale, a small amount to you might be a great week for another person in a different part of the world.

If you notice where most nasty threads come from, that are not blatant scam artists or spammers, they come in new gtld threads. If you take inventory of the contentious back and forth I am willing to bet that's where more things get nasty than anywhere else.

Extensions do that, I wrote many years ago about having people come to me in .tv where one time, a member (no longer here) told me he was going to get on a plane, fly across the country and punch another member in the face. I asked why? He said my .tv names were crap. I replied well I wish you didn't tell me if you go through with this because now I am involved with knowledge of a premeditated assault, so don't even think about doing that, That member's opinion means nothing in your life, they are nobody and just so long as you like your names that's all that matters.

Too many people are getting caught up in other people's lives. It's not from care it's to push their superiority complex.

I write about a lot of topics and met a lot of people and helped a lot of people, the thing I learned is find your niche, and while you might not want to invest in an extension, after you provide a fact based hypothesis of why that extension might not be a good investment, the conversation ends. People have made money in so many niches and no one really knows all the strengths of the username they are talking to, someone might be a master marketer, they might be quite happy with $500 sales, feeling they can get more of those in volume than holding out. There is no universal right way. There is the personal right way for each person. There is knowledge to be gained but ultimately it's on each person to follow their own path and then the two entities that matter, the only two, your email account where your offers come in and your bank account. They will tell you if you are doing things right or not, no blogger, forum member or legend can match any of that.

Internet.Domains said:

The most common type of bullying I have witnessed is members with more experience, knowledge, sales history, etc. belittle or "put down" someone with less experience, knowledge, sales history, etc.

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Right, but that is often after the less experienced person has an attitude problem or completely dismisses the experience, knowledge, and sales history of someone more experienced. I am not going to name names, but I see this a lot.

I rarely see an experienced domainer just proactively being a dick for no reason.

Brad

There is no such bullying here in namepros (except few now and then events). I strongly disagree with this post. Unwanted drama I see. Again, I am not bullying. Just pouring my heart out. Cheers!

bmugford said:

Right, but that is often after the less experienced person has an attitude problem or completely dismisses the experience, knowledge, and sales history of someone more experienced. I am not going to name names, but I see this a lot.

I rarely see an experienced domainer just proactively being a dick for no reason.

Brad

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Yes, I get your point. The definition of bullying is defined, but mostly on Namepros it will be subjective and for that reason everyone will see it differently.

I know, for me personally, I am going to try to be more respectful and kind. I hope others will as well. If they don't, I respect their decision.

MapleDots said:

There is something about dislike that gets some peoples ire up.

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Changed. How's that?

(There is a bug when you first Downvote or Un-Downvote where it shows the old text, but that will be fixed soon.)

un-downvote / downvote sounds so weird. If possible plz think about something more pleasing.

MapleDots said:

There was a TV show or movie about something like that, where a group came in and cleaned things up after an unsavoury event.

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Men in Black.

arjun29 said:

un-downvote / downvote sounds so weird. If possible plz think about something more pleasing.

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Many websites use icons for this purpose, but that would take much longer to do since the website is built to use text in those places. However, those icons mean "Upvote" and "Downvote" (or "Vote Up" and "Vote Down" if you prefer), but we have both a "Like" and "Thank" option that represent "Upvote" so keeping those unchanged seems clearest.

We would have to create new options (and counts) for "Agree" and "Disagree" because those do not accurately represent all existing Likes and Dislikes, so that would require a lot more work and likely not happen soon.

We're open to suggestions for different names for these options.

Support Team said:

We're open to suggestions for different names for these options.

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Just remove the Dislike button entirely. Originally it wasn't there anyway. If someone disagrees, they can do so in private, or create a post saying why they disagree.

A lot of what this thread is about is already covered by NP rules. I have reported a few posts for name-calling when it seemed to be just abusive and baseless, and in most cases mods took action. Overall I think the moderation on NP is very good.

The word bullying gets used more and more these days. If that means bullying is really taking place and gets reduced, good. If that means that normal discussion and disagreement is discouraged because it might upset someone, bad.

This is the most relevant page that we have relating to this topic:

• Expectations for respect and constructiveness

To emphasize, the best way to handle situations that are in contrast with those expectations (e.g., bullying) is to report it and not reply to it.

At a minimum, please report it first, and if we reject the report, then consider replying to it. If you reply to it before we review the report, then your reply may be the difference that causes the report to be rejected, which is likely not what you want if you're reporting it. Worse, your reply could result in you being reported if cooler heads do not prevail.

We're listening and appreciate everyone's input on this topic.

Support Team said:

We would have to create new options (and counts) for "Agree" and "Disagree" because those do not accurately represent all existing Likes and Dislikes, so that would require a lot more work and likely not happen soon.

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Actually I think Dislike and Disagree would not be confusing.

All existing topics where I disliked a post I personally meant I disagree with the poster. My interpretation was never that I dislike the poster.

I think changing it to disagree does not skew the meaning in previous posts. In fact I think agree and disagree make it look mature and more like a journalism site.

So I disagree with the above post.

Wow that sound so mature and really not at all confrontational.

It would bring the forum more in line with an opinion as opposed to a judgement.
Downvote could still be misinterpreted as in... "What you're downvoting me?"

My response would now have to be.... No my friend I am only disagreeing with you.

Still need to explain to a new member what that means.

You can always leave one link at like because thank and like are similar, as long as you have an agree and disagree.

I disagree with any further censorship on this forum. I believe the report button and the mods do a fantastic job of removing any offensive posts and handling infrequent fights that occur.

I come here to learn and read what others have to say so that I can improve my domaining skills. If we are not here to learn how to sell more domains and make more money—why are we here?

I did not come here to be schooled on ethics or have other people’s ethics imposed on me or walk on verbal eggshells. Nobody should be afraid to post what they really think as long as they post it as politely as they know how.

I personally love the forum the way it is with all the different personalities and styles of communicating. When something offends you don’t cry to Bob (sounds like people run to Bob when they feel bullied) put your big boy pants on and stand up for yourself or use the report button.

This is not Kumbaya this is a crash course in a business that we decided to undertake. I agree with whoever said some people with such delicate sensibilities probably aren’t cut out for domaining. You ask a question expect a real answer not a sugar coated answer. I respect the blunt answers.

If people don’t like the style of posters use the ignore feature. I feel this bullying idea on NP is extremely exaggerated and I have been here about as long as Bob.

MapleDots said:

I think changing it to disagree does not skew the meaning in previous posts.

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Not a disagreement, but with all due respect, you're in fact wrong.

There are many reasons why members have disliked posts and while "disagree" may be the most popular, it does not represent them all.

Read more about some of the other reasons for dislikes:

• Likes vs. Thank vs. Dislike

MapleDots said:

My interpretation was never that I dislike the poster.

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That's not a use case we're concerned about, but since you thought of it, there are probably incidents of it happening. We do not condone disliking a post for that reason.

MapleDots said:

It would bring the forum more in line with an opinion as opposed to a judgement.

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Agreed.

MapleDots said:

Still need to explain to a new member what that means.

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For those who feel there shouldn't be an option to dislike, disagree, or downvote, then your point is a positive one since the option will be used less.

MapleDots said:

"What you're downvoting me?"

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This is likely the heart of the issue: it might make more sense to hide who is downvoting and only show a total score instead like you see on other sites (notice how some have negative scores).

Is knowing who disagreed or downvoted a post actually important as long as the effect/knowledge of it exists?

It's something to think about.

Support Team said:

This is likely the heart of the issue: it might make more sense to hide who is downvoting and only show a total score instead like you see on other sites (notice how some have negative scores).

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The dislike button is bad. I don't use it. Making it anonymous makes it worse.

Simple question: Why was the Dislike button introduced?

Support Team said:

Is knowing who disagreed or downvoted a post actually important as long as the effect/knowledge of it exists?

It's something to think about.

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Yes actually for me it would be beneficial

Example.....

I think domain.com is worth 10k

New Member = disagree
Means nothing to me

Pro Member or Mike Mann - disagree
Hmm without saying a word they have my attention and it definitely is not negative attention.

Total of 2 disagreements does not tell me that a pro member or Mike Mann disagreed with me.

It's called namepros and the point is to learn from the pros.

Just the other side of the coin.

PS. Imagine how much easier appraisals would be...

Is my domain worth renewing?
Is my domain worth 1K?

Dislike = what a dickhead you are for asking

Downvote = you don't know what you're doing

Disagree = No (straight and simple)