discuss We Must and Can Fix This

I think we should start by making "like and dislike" into "agree and disagree"

There is something about dislike that gets some peoples ire up.

I know its supposed to mean we dislike the post or the idea but disagree is more easily understood and nobody has to explain its meaning.

Even Thumb up or Thumb down would be gentler than dislike.


Just saying.....

So let me justify why I say that at least occasionally I think most of us do something unintentionally that is bullying.

But Is It Really Bullying?

Many probably feel bullying is too strong a term. I decided briefly to look at how it is defined, and how it might apply to activity on NamePros. The source I used is the site from the RCMP (Canada’s national police force). While I know the material was intended mainly for adolescents, I think the principles can apply to us too.

So how is bullying defined? “(Bullying is) where someone purposely and repeatedly says or does hurtful things to someone else. Bullying can occur one on one or in a group(s) of people. There are many different forms of bullying.” They also point out that there is normally some perceived imbalance of power. On NPs that could be status, number of friends here, experience, etc.

I do know that a number on NPs feel that they have been bullied. In fact I have discussed exactly this topic with several who came to me with concern over this issue over the past half year. I also know of people who would be outstanding members of NamePros who have so far avoided joining because of their opinion that too much harassment takes place.

The RCMP divide bullying by type, defining verbal bullying as “bullying (using words to hurt someone) that includes name calling, put-downs, threats and teasing.” Now I hope that we agree that threats are not made on NPs, but I think we can all find cases where there is teasing and for sure put-downs. And while often it is caught, name calling does happen (both direct name calling and implied within statements).

Social bullying according to the RCMP is “using your friends and relationships to hurt someone: includes spreading rumours, gossiping, excluding others from a group or making others look foolish or unintelligent.” It certainly is not done by a majority, but it seems to me that you don’t need to look far to find social bullying in the overall domain community, including NamePros. Did you ever like a post that really was a put down of someone else or implied something about them or their motives that really you have no certainty is true. See how easy it is to be a bully? It is scary.

The RCMP specifically split off cyberbullying which they define as “Cyberbullying involves the use of communication technologies such as the Internet, social networking sites, etc. to repeatedly intimidate or harass others.”

Being a police force, the RCMP site does mention that while all forms of bullying hurts people (both those who bully and those who are bullied according to research), certain types of bullying are in fact criminal.

The most common of these is criminal harassment, defined as “repeated tormenting online.” Tormenting is a strong word, but I think our community has come close to that in some cases.

Another bullying related legal term is defamatory libel, defined as “spreading rumors about someone.” Note that the criminal activity is not simply the first poster, but reposting. I honestly believe we must set a higher bar on the truth on NamePros. It is way too easy to malign a company or an individual by starting a post with some sensational but untrue title. It is unacceptable to imply someone is doing something for some ulterior motive. The harm can be very real.

I know that there really have been, and will continue to be, some bad actors who cheat others. I am not talking about protecting them, but I am talking about making sure there is due process and clear evidence before calling out anyone.

I think almost all of us have sometimes reposted something that is negative about someone else without being sure it was in fact true. I think many of us have put-down or made fun of someone else, at least once or twice, maybe in an offhand way without even thinking about it being bullying. But the person on the receiving end probably thought that it was. This is not a problem with someone else. It is a problem within our habits in the community.

This is serious. We need to do something.

Fortunately I think we can and it is much easier than we think!

Bob

I agree with Bob that that other "Bob Hawkes Celebrity Roast" thread had run its course and needed to be, as Bob put it, "wound down," but I am not sure that we need to beat this dead horse further, this issue of bullying when there was none.

MapleDots said:

Show attachment 119623


I think we should start by making "like and dislike" into "agree and disagree"

There is something about dislike that gets some peoples ire up.

I know its supposed to mean we dislike the post or the idea but disagree is more easily understood and nobody has to explain its meaning.

Even Thumb up or Thumb down would be gentler than dislike.


Just saying.....

Click to expand...

Thank you I have been saying Disagree for years, just think about the feeling you have if someone says I disagree with you vs I dislike you.

Actually, equity78, that's something tangible and real that makes sense. I think it could be done, probably not too hard to adjust the text.

For example in vb4
https://www.vbulletin.com/forum/for...383714-change-like-button-to-recommend-button
changing the FB like button to recommend.

Sure similar could be done for Xenforo for the in-app like / dislike button.

xynames said:

this issue of bullying when there was none.

Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree. I am not going to rehash what was in now deleted posts or what was justified or not. That is not the purpose for this thread. As I wrote above, for a long time, I know of multiple individuals who have for good reason felt harassed, intimidated, and made fun of.

When I read the RCMP definitions of bullying countless examples leaped out to me from NPs threads. It is so ingrained in the domain community that we don't even consider it to be bullying. But step back, read carefully what third parties call bullying in the quotations I put above. It is important. It is not like this in other professional communities I know.

I realize, as you said in your excellent post in the other thread, that there are reasons, like the loss of personal communication that make it easier to happen here. Anyway, while I respect your opinion, I do not agree with it. There is bullying, in my opinion.

Bob

Well, anyway, I would have expected nothing less than a lengthy rebuttal from you, Bob. Never give an inch!

Bob Hawkes said:

I respectfully disagree. I am not going to rehash what was in now deleted posts or what was justified or not. That is not the purpose for this thread. As I wrote above, for a long time, I know of multiple individuals who have for good reason felt harassed, intimidated, and made fun of.

When I read the RCMP definitions of bullying countless examples leaped out to me from NPs threads. It is so ingrained in the domain community that we don't even consider it to be bullying. But step back, read carefully what third parties call bullying in the quotations I put above. It is important. It is not like this in other professional communities I know.

I realize, as you said in your excellent post in the other thread, that there are reasons, like the loss of personal communication that make it easier to happen here. Anyway, while I respect your opinion, I do not agree with it. There is bullying, in my opinion.

Bob

Click to expand...

Bob I spent many years dealing with brokerage firms, it makes domaining look like a love in.

Publishing and politics would also make domaining look like a love fest.

Yeah let's all sit around together and sing Kumbaya and flutter our eyes at each too.

I'm sorry and nothing against you Bob, but imo, this thread is totally uncalled for. This 'peace/love/dove stuff is now starting to get too patronizing, self serving and mushy. This forum has been here, and even survived it's down period to came back stronger, for over 16 years! So things must not be so bad here at NP, because people keep joining up, posting and learning here.

And also, what else do we also include in these 'professional behaviors' - no lying about sales you didn't make; no bragging that one can't back up; trust everyone who is helping with advice whether they have been here a week, 2 months, or 5 years, or never made a sale..they mean well;... This list can go on and on...

This forum has hundreds of thousands of members from all over the world that participate off and on, and some more so. With that comes hundreds of thousands of personalities and not all fluent in the host language here reading text writing that doesn't always come across as it's intended. But so long as verbal civility is maintained, and it is, there's gonna be disagreements and opinions, and if peeps are gonna get hurt by them, then maybe this isn't a place for them.

What else is going on, is that for the first time since I have been a member, it's okay to post a million words about feeling victimized, but posting about how it's okay, or there was no victimization, or anything that minimizes what some of us honestly perceive as pretty close to a non-issue, carries the risk of deletion, censure or worse.

Is that where we are at now? Just checking.

I understand your scepticism @hawkeye and @xynames and I do understand that different people have different viewpoints and different styles. I do also understand that this has been a long standing and valuable community for many people. I would like personally to just ask one thing. Give it just a day or two with an open mind. Please. I honestly think there are things we can do which will make it more effective for domaining.

@MapleDots and @equity78 have already suggested one (seems to me) simple thing. Why not have a disagree button so it will be more widely used and make it easier for individuals to express disagreement without two sides escalating?

It is simple things like that we can do.

Bob

"Kumbaya..my Lord, Kumbaya!"
"Kumbaya..my Lord, Kumbaya!"

hawkeye said:

.

This forum has hundreds of thousands of members from all over the world that participate off and on, and some more so. With that comes hundreds of thousands of personalities and not all fluent in the host language here reading text writing that doesn't always come across as it's intended. But so long as verbal civility is maintained, and it is, there's gonna be disagreements and opinions, and if peeps are gonna get hurt by them, then maybe this isn't a place for them.

Click to expand...

Not only that, but this assumes that people who come on here ready to make money will dismiss making said money because the tone of one of the members was rude. That's ridiculous. I basically could not care less, unless said rudeness was was hindering the readability of the forum, which will never happen.

I still don't know what the root cause of this was but I do think you're overreacting and all of this is completely unnecessary. I have personally not witnessed accounts of bullying on this forum. It's in fact, one of the nicest and most tolerant communities out there.

Lord Antares said:

It's in fact, one of the nicest and most tolerant communities out there.

Click to expand...

And the moderators work very hard to make it look like that.
If you saw all the deleted posts you might not be so eager to make that statement.

I'm not saying it amounts to bullying but it certainly does amount to some very heated exchanges. I've been in a couple of those in the past and the mods came in and cleaned things up. What remains makes it look exactly like what you described.

There was a TV show or movie about something like that, where a group came in and cleaned things up after an unsavoury event.

What was that movie again? Matrix.... no.... I can't think of it right now.

That thread before clean up wasn't so bad. You make it seem like it was a combat zone, you and I know it wasn't like that.

Lord Antares said:

. It's in fact, one of the nicest and most tolerant communities out there.

Click to expand...

The great majority of the time I agree it is.

Lord Antares said:

I have personally not witnessed accounts of bullying on this forum.

Click to expand...

Are you sure? No put downs, no name calling, no belittling, no spreading of false information, no untrue statements affecting others?

I realize your opinion may be different, and different people have different standards, but please I request read how bullying is defined by a national police force,then go through some pages of NPs.

Lord Antares said:

ready to make money will dismiss making said money because the tone of one of the members was rude.

Click to expand...

I am hoping I or someone else will post more later in the discussion but briefly the following was what I had in mind. First, if we had professional discussion around principles, rather than put downs, there actually will be more effective sharing of relevant information cause the focus will be on that and not on personalities.

Secondly, I honestly feel that when the public sees some unprofessional comment on a public blog comment or a random Google search it actually hurts all of us. Think about, if one realtor in your area went around being rude to customers, is it only he who would be harmed or would there be spill over. I might well be wrong on this, but it seems to me logical that any lack of professionalism spills over to hurt us all.

But the most important point, and I ask your patience to stick with the thread with an open mind for a little bit longer, is that we just need to change our habits. In tiny ways, just thinking twice on how we word something, its not a major change.

Bob

MapleDots said:

I'm not saying it amounts to bullying but it certainly does amount to some very heated exchanges.

Click to expand...

Is that really a bad thing? I think one is more likely to learn from such debates than ones which are censored and all flowers and candy.

Lord Antares said:

Is that really a bad thing? I think one is more likely to learn from such debates than ones which are censored and all flowers and candy.

Click to expand...

Exactly.... but you are only seeing the flowers and candy, that is why I felt it necessary to respond to your original statement.

Lord Antares said:

Not only that, but this assumes that people who come on here ready to make money will dismiss making said money because the tone of one of the members was rude. That's ridiculous. I basically could not care less, unless said rudeness was was hindering the readability of the forum, which will never happen.
I still don't know what the root cause of this was but I do think you're overreacting and all of this is completely unnecessary. I have personally not witnessed accounts of bullying on this forum. It's in fact, one of the nicest and most tolerant communities out there.

Click to expand...

This guy used to stand upon his head ('til his ears were turning red)
just to make a deal.

There's nothing going on at NP that would dissuade anyone from joining to learn. Certainly no obstacles as arduous to overcome as standing upside down on a bi-plane.

I recall that guy...LagunaBoy...he kept complaining that people were picking on him too, but in reality we were just giving him a dose of reality that his domains were not worth buying and that he should stay away from such domains for his own good and the good of his pocketbook.

Bob Hawkes said:

Are you sure? No put downs, no name calling, no belittling, no spreading of false information, no untrue statements affecting others?

Click to expand...

It's interesting that you bring that up.

I've only seen put downs in cases where there was spreading of false information. I 100% endorse those put downs.

If someone hypes up a new, shitty TLD and makes up sales figures and statistics for the benefit of that TLD, that person must absolutely be called out. In fact, that happened just recently. I think it was the .best TLD but I might be mistaken. I didn't care enough to remember.

I suppose you would classify a lot of the posts in that thread as bullying, but I would disagree. It could only hinder new members if all the ''negative'' comments in that thread were removed and only the positive ones left because it would paint a misleading and flat-out false picture of said TLD.

What is false or unsupported (in other words, bullshit) should absolutely be called out.

Lord Antares said:

Is that really a bad thing?

Click to expand...

Heated exchanges can be an absolutely good thing if they are about the ideas.
When they become personalized attacks they are not.
When they bring in people who are not part of the discussion.
When they spread untrue information.
This is a problem. But we can solve it. In a way that will make the issues that your hold strongly hold have more, not less, clarity. The tone of some of the debate takes away from the good arguments that your expertise could bring.
Bob

Lord Antares said:

It's interesting that you bring that up.

I've only seen put downs in cases where there was spreading of false information. I 100% endorse those put downs.

If someone hypes up a new, sh*tty TLD and makes up sales figures and statistics for the benefit of that TLD, that person must absolutely be called out. In fact, that happened just recently. I think it was the .best TLD but I might be mistaken. I didn't care enough to remember.

I suppose you would classify a lot of the posts in that thread as bullying, but I would disagree. It could only hinder new members if all the ''negative'' comments in that thread were removed and only the positive ones left because it would paint a misleading and flat-out false picture of said TLD.

What is false or unsupported (in other words, bullsh*t) should absolutely be called out.

Click to expand...

What you refer to in the .best thread, is pretty much what started this whole issue, in a thread involving the .live extension. At least, that's the way many of us saw it.

<<Heated exchanges can be an absolutely good thing if they are about the ideas.
When they become personalized attacks they are not.
When they bring in people who are not part of the discussion.
When they spread untrue information.
This is a problem. But we can solve it. In a way that will make the issues that your hold strongly hold have more, not less, clarity. The tone of some of the debate takes away from the good arguments that your expertise could bring.>>

This is what I am talking about. If you keep repeating what you think is true, at length, does it become more true?

All of these words WOULD be true, if they actually applied to this forum. But I don't even think that they do.

Sometimes we could use a little more professionality, I admitted that myself. But bullying? As Dr. McCoy used to say, Poppycock!

xynames said:

What you refer to in the .best thread, is pretty much what started this whole issue, in a thread involving the .live extension. At least, that's the way many of us saw it.

Click to expand...

I'm not active on this forum so I come and go.

So what's the issue here? Are the people defending the inflated TLDs the bullied and the ones who call them out the bullies? If so, that's not bullying. When the day comes when you are not allowed to call out bullshit, THEN we will have a problem.