IT.COM

news Free Speech

NameSilo
Watch

Bernard Wright

Established Member
Impact
1,252
Many seem to think freedom of speech should be a protection offered only to those with popularly-held beliefs, which I find ironic. Here is my logic. Perhaps you can tell me where it is flawed.

There is evil in the world. Most of us would rather there not be. I think that's a fair premise.

However, evil, on its face, is not objective, and what falls under "evil" cannot be relegated to any governing body, even if that body were democratically elected. Moreover, ostracizing "evil" from polite society will create resentment and an underground network where it is out of sight and out of mind, until it rears a very large head.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say banning certain modes of thought and communication from the internet is effective. I think there have been examples of popular figures whose prominence has waned after being deplatformed by Twitter, so maybe the method does work. Is this not a precedent that could (and in time, likely would) lead to unforeseen consequences that hit closer to home as cultural pendulums swing?

So, 10/10 on the bad scale gets banned today. Maybe next month we work our way down to 8/10 on the bad scale. So, in a few months, we're all content with everything on the internet being a 1 to 7. Feels good to be a 1! The powers that be really like you 1s. ...Look out 6s.

But some people reeeealy want those 7s gone, and they lobby. So the governing body that draws the line declares all 7s gone. No internet presence for you. But now concern arises among even those who are proponents of the system. It's becoming scary to see how quickly a 7 can lose their voice and be banned from the marketplace of ideas, just for going against popular opinion. But this is only a minority of people who hold this concern. Most people are fine with it. In turn, that minority gets put under the microscope, and who would have thought? They're SEVENS. Boot 'em.

In my hypothetical world, consensus is somehow reached that 7 shall remain the line. However, what is defined as a 6 or a 7 can change over time, and once someone is deemed a 7, there is no turning back because they have been ostracized. You can't come back in 7s! And the 8s, 9s, and 10s are out of sight, out of mind.

Are the 7s, 8s, 9s, and 10s, still alive? You bet they are. And that's a lot of people, and some of them are not only evil, they are intelligent and capable.

This is an oversimplification. There is much nuance and complexity in the real world, and that is the point. We cannot draw straight lines between good and evil, and who we should let participate in society. I see the only solution to keeping things from unraveling into utter chaos to be allowing some chaos and dissent to remain the in the system. Allowing any group of people, or any political faction to dominate, might actually result in short-term benefits. I'm not saying it won't work in the short term. My point is, who draws the line, and who decides what falls on either side of the line, is not something I am comfortable placing in the hands of others, even if they are elected officials. Don't be so naive as to think that the politicians are going to get it right and create utopia. And don't think you will either. The world is complex.

Road to Hell. Good intentions.
 
Last edited:
8
•••
The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
I am done with you

you use by far too many words

to justify an unjustifiable behavior

nice try
but I get bored

That's fine. Some people read books. Books, in case you're unfamiliar with them, are even longer.

Nobody is required to pay attention to a thread in NamePros. If you're bored, it's not my job to entertain you.
 
1
•••
If you think posting as "Epik" on there is the best business move go for it.

Though it does seems contrary to what Joseph Peterson was trying to spin that Rob Monster and Epik are different entities. That just reinforces Rob Monster is Epik, and Epik is Rob Monster.

I share those concerns. In fact, I recommended to Rob that he should change his Gab user name from "Epik" to something else.

Epik has no political opinions, but individuals like Rob do. Personally I don't visit Gab.com. But I assume that many if not most discussions will be overtly political. Even to participate in them as "Epik", regardless of what is said, will be interpreted as an endorsement of any view that isn't denounced. And that causes PR problems.
 
0
•••
“The First Amendment states, in relevant part, that:

“Congress shall make no law...abridging freedom of speech.”

Freedom of speech includes the right:
  • Not to speak (specifically, the right not to salute the flag).
    West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943).
  • Of students to wear black armbands to school to protest a war (“Students do not shed their constitutional rights at the schoolhouse gate.”).
    Tinker v. Des Moines, 393 U.S. 503 (1969).
  • To use certain offensive words and phrases to convey political messages.
    Cohen v. California, 403 U.S. 15 (1971).
  • To contribute money (under certain circumstances) to political campaigns.
    Buckley v. Valeo, 424 U.S. 1 (1976).
  • To advertise commercial products and professional services (with some restrictions).
    Virginia Board of Pharmacy v. Virginia Consumer Council, 425 U.S. 748 (1976); Bates v. State Bar of Arizona, 433 U.S. 350 (1977).
  • To engage in symbolic speech, (e.g., burning the flag in protest).
    Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989); United States v. Eichman, 496 U.S. 310 (1990).
Freedom of speech does not include the right:
  • To incite actions that would harm others (e.g., “hout[ing] ‘fire’ in a crowded theater.”).
    Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47 (1919).
    [*]To make or distribute obscene materials.
    Roth v. United States, 354 U.S. 476 (1957).
    [*]To burn draft cards as an anti-war protest.
    United States v. O’Brien, 391 U.S. 367 (1968).
    [*]To permit students to print articles in a school newspaper over the objections of the school administration.
    Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier, 484 U.S. 260 (1988).
    [*]Of students to make an obscene speech at a school-sponsored event.
    Bethel School District #43 v. Fraser, 478 U.S. 675 (1986).
    [*]Of students to advocate illegal drug use at a school-sponsored event.
    Morse v. Frederick, __ U.S. __ (2007).


https://www.uscourts.gov/about-fede...ational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does


Edit: I cut and paste from the link, I dont know what happened to this post! Where the strike throughs came from if it was forum software or not.

https:// www. uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/about-educational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does
 
Last edited:
2
•••
Nowadays anyone using the term "fake news" deserves contumely. Use it, and expect people to no longer take you seriously (if they ever did take you seriously to begin with).
You mean like these? They are constantly accusing anyone that doesn't think like them as being "Fake News"
C5DP5AKWAAEZD0r.jpg
 
0
•••
I often say: "Love everyone. Judge nobody." Those who know me will attest this to be the case. They would probably also acknowledge that I practice what I preach, and that I do so without bias. I also am known to visit with and support panhandlers even though many say not to do so. Whatever.

All true, in my experience with Rob.

Yes, people died,

Rob did say this from the beginning, actually, even though he maintained the video was a hoax. I asked Rob to take some time to study the issue, in case he could persuade himself that the video was real. I was also hoping for a deeper apology from Rob. He didn't talk to me before deciding to post here in NamePros. That's his right, of course. But I don't think people will be satisfied by "sorry if anybody was offended". I'm not.

In the meantime, vigilant citizens who take initiative to memorialize the circumstances of an alleged crime should not be a considered as engaging in a criminal act

That's an important point.

nor should policy makers be celebrated for making major changes to constitutional liberty when there is not even a conviction.

Disagree. Policy changes should be celebrated if they're good changes. For example, after someone guns down a crowd of innocent victims, we don't need to wait for some particular conviction (or non-conviction) to re-examine the topic of gun regulation.

Just consider that for the last 2 years, many in the US were dogmatic that Trump colluded with Russia.

Of course, Trump colluded with Russia. Only willful blindness can convince one otherwise.

Now we have an official report that says it never happened. Sure, Trump is no saint but due process was done.

Utter nonsense.

.................................................

Rob, I realize your user name her on NamePros is "Rob Monster". But the logo is still "Epik". The goal for any registrar's brand should be neutrality. I recommend changing the graphic. And I reiterate my recommendation to change your handle in Gab to reflect your personal identity rather than "Epik" itself.

I'm doing this in public because it is now a scandal of interest to the general public.
 
2
•••
Of course, Trump colluded with Russia. Only willful blindness can convince one otherwise.

Are listening to the findings live on TV now? No Collusion.
 
2
•••
So much for having 1 thread where the topic of free speech could be discussed without distractions.

@iowadawg

You are delusional. When has anybody EVER defended as free speech any muslims advocating the killing of christians / jews? And plenty of people DO say ignorant bigoted things about muslims every day. Let's not pretend those bigots are being victimized. They are not being locked up for "hate crimes", offensive though they are.
 
1
•••
This is what Epik did.

No. At most, that is what Rob Monster did in his personal Twitter account. There is a difference between Rob and Epik.

There is also a completely separate NamePros thread for those of you who want to criticize Rob Monster. This topic was discussed in much greater detail there. This thread was originally about free speech.

There was no apology. Epik even blames the SPLC and continues to use every thread as a promotion channel. They regret the backlash but not the offense.

False. You are talking about Rob Monster not Epik. I personally apologized to my coworkers at Epik for Rob's insensitivity. And I apologized in public on behalf of Epik. Whether Rob does or doesn't apologize in a way that people find satisfactory, it is simply untrue that "Epik ... blames the SPLC" or that we only "regret the backlash but not the offense". I have bluntly criticized the offense by Rob from the very beginning. And coming into NamePros to criticize or explain or apologize is NOT using "every thread as a promotion channel".

From now on my stance will depend a lot on how they react and amend themselves. If they carry on with this attitude and way of doing business the Epik brand is going to suffer.

No kidding. This has been a PR nightmare caused by 1 person. The fundamental business of Epik as a domain registrar and marketplace has absolutely nothing to do with violence or even politics. If it weren't for Rob's misguided decision to tweet a link to a video, nobody would think of Epik in connection a massacre in New Zealand. Yet he has connected the Epik brand – artificially – with the most poisonous kind of human behavior imaginable.

Nothing depends on "how they react". "They" is plural. This is just Rob. It all depends on Rob.
 
1
•••
In another thread about freedom of speech in the words actually in a domain name, another member posted a link to an excellent book on Freedom of Speech which I bought, and I recommend it too. Freedom of speech is an ongoing challenge we all have to wrestle with.



https://www.namepros.com/threads/blatantly-racist-domains.1020858/page-3#post-6231415

The only challenge I face is dealing with Bolsheviks who think X speech that is free for some, but the same speech is considered forbidden to others. Other than that, free speech isn't really a challenging concept as some people make you want to think it is. It's the enemy of freedom who makes it challenging, which is part of their plan to destroy free speech and all other inalienable rights.

But remember this, if your govt does not recognize the right to forcibly combat those who wish to take away any and all other inalienable rights, then you have no rights at all for they can be taken away from you at the drop of a hat. There is no such thing as a benevolent govt.
 
0
•••
There is no such thing as a benevolent govt.

Yep. Lol. Except when Govt is playing Robin Hood and giving away other peoples hard earned tax money for those who want HUD housing, food stamps and welfare benefits.
 
0
•••
Yet he has connected the Epik brand – artificially – with the most poisonous kind of human behavior imaginable.

So are those in support of Rob connected "with the most poisonous kind of human behaviour imaginable?"
 
2
•••
... As for making a statement about what exactly happened in NZ on March 14, I wasn't there so I don't know. The guy who is accused of doing it is still awaiting arraignment. Yes, people died. The courts now need to convict.

In the meantime, vigilant citizens who take initiative to memorialize the circumstances of an alleged crime should not be a considered as engaging in a criminal act, nor should policy makers be celebrated for making major changes to constitutional liberty when there is not even a conviction....


I have not heard anywhere
that there is a doubt that he did it..

or am I wrong here???
 
0
•••
Yep. Lol. Except when Govt is playing Robin Hood and giving away other peoples hard earned tax money for those who want HUD housing, food stamps and welfare benefits.

Yes, or giving away people's hard earned tax money to poor billionaires who need handouts when it comes to building NFL stadiums and other things like that as well.

Brad
 
Last edited:
4
•••
That's fine. Some people read books. Books, in case you're unfamiliar with them, are even longer.

Nobody is required to pay attention to a thread in NamePros. If you're bored, it's not my job to entertain you.

a book might be interesting enough to read 600 pages
 
0
•••
So are those in support of Rob connected "with the most poisonous kind of human behaviour imaginable?"

Guilt by association. That's what you're insinuating, is it not?

Epik employees help customers with domains. I manage TLDs; supervise website development projects; interact with ICANN, registries, UDRP forums, etc. Apparently that means I'm in "support of Rob". So I'm responsible for the man's political views and public comments. Yes?

Or perhaps you interpret my public explanation of Rob's action – which is very critical of Rob – as "support of Rob"?

No, I'm not connected with white supremacists. And I never miss an opportunity to condemn them. But I know the "angry mob" mentality. You want to lynch me too.
 
1
•••
Guilt by association. That's what you're insinuating, is it not?

Epik employees help customers with domains. I manage TLDs; supervise website development projects; interact with ICANN, registries, UDRP forums, etc. Apparently that means I'm in "support of Rob". So I'm responsible for the man's political views and public comments. Yes?

Or perhaps you interpret my public explanation of Rob's action – which is very critical of Rob – as "support of Rob"?

No, I'm not connected with white supremacists. And I never miss an opportunity to condemn them. But I know the "angry mob" mentality. You want to lynch me too.
No, your word is "lynch."......and you seem to be attacking or "lynching" those of us who have similar views as Rob. You are showing your intolerance and one sided views. While doing so you are creating the PR scandal, not mitigating it.
 
0
•••
Yes, or giving away people's hard earned tax money to poor billionaires who need handouts when it comes to building NFL stadiums and other things like that as well.

Brad

Don't disagree with that either. Good point, Corporate welfare is the same. Look at GE- for years I watched as a multinational gaming the tax system. Same with the other multinationals. Amazon pays no income taxes? Their employees are forced to pay their income taxes though.

And let's not forget most of the middle class pays for everything, and if the situation we have now with growing monopolies online- small business is going to be squashed even more than has been the past 20 years. No middle class = failure.
 
Last edited:
3
•••
Yep. Lol. Except when Govt is playing Robin Hood and giving away other peoples hard earned tax money for those who want HUD housing, food stamps and welfare benefits.


That's not a benevolent government. It's malevolent. Any govt who, willy-nilly gives out welfare to those that do not really need it, has an agenda. It's called "buying favors" and is a tactic an enemy uses when they secretly infiltrate a country to win the hearts of the people in preparation for a full takeover.

When you easily give welfare out to to those who do not need it, they become dependent on that welfare and it does them a disservice because they see no need to try harder and reach their full potential.

But it's a great way to takeover a country once you've infiltrated it's govt, with near-full support from the citizenry (who have no idea what's really happening).
 
Last edited:
1
•••
It's called "buying favors" and is a tactic an enemy uses when they secretly infiltrate a country to win the hearts of the people in preparation for a full takeover.

And historically, this is repeated over and over throughout history. Societal mushrooms.
 
3
•••
And historically, this is repeated over and over throughout history. Societal mushrooms.

Because people are purposefully not taught the dangers that history teaches. In fact, they may even be taught to opposite.

The enemy is always 3 steps ahead, minimum.
 
2
•••
Because people are purposefully not taught the dangers that history teaches. In fact, they may even be taught to opposite.

The enemy is always 3 steps ahead, minimum.

And that is why Free Speech is so important. Being squashed and deindexed by Google, websites who do not get discovered, they are not given a platform. Same with those who use social media constantly- censored for views that do not fit the narrative. Big Tech is a huge enemy, and they are ahead of the curve. Google even erased the "Do no evil" b.s. as I recall from their mission statement.

I just would hope individuals will move back to their own websites, and a simple website creator is made and some sort of new form of linking system- like an independent (for lack of a better term) "peer to peer indexing" system is created.
 
2
•••
This started as an excellent thread and many pitched in valuable comments but it seems to have gotten derailed. Pitching in some thoughts of my own if it's not too late.

Taking away such a voice, even of a murderous maniac, sets a legal precedent that will, with certainty, be exploited by those in power who want to move the boundaries of acceptability into the realm of political opponents (...) You can't pick an choose who gets freedom, and if you value your own liberty you cannot entrust politicians and private companies (...)

Yes. Exactly. Give everyone a voice, but endorse and engage with only those voices you choose. Choose well, and be cognizant of the great fortune you have in being able to make your own choice. This goes for all things in life.

A few thoughts here. I think a core issue with classifying anything as outside the boundaries of free speech is, in a sense, that it's a slippery slope - any level of censorship is arguably bad for an ideal democracy.

And yet, I can't shake the thought that free speech is not the absolute most important thing in a society.

One of roles of a government is, arguably, to protect its citizens. As some have pointed out, one's right to free speech should not trump another's right to safety. Practical free speech is different, then, than free speech in the abstract.

I see some bringing up the idea that disallowing Holocaust denial is problematic. Sure, if what we're talking about is the ideal of free speech in the abstract, then it is problematic - anyone should be able to say whatever they want in a society where that ideal is upheld above all else. I argue that society has never, and can never exist within the boundaries of any government that strives to protect its citizens.

This is where I get stuck, morally, philosophically, etc. Can someone explain to me why it is desirable to allow people to deny the Holocaust? (Beyond the slippery slope argument, which is insufficient in my mind).

This isn't something two can disagree about, there's no nuance to the truth that the Holocaust did happen. Saying it didn't isn't a matter of opinion, it's a harmful act of disinformation, so disallowing that is an important act of protecting the truth and protecting people.

Ultimately, I agree with Bernard's conclusion - you can choose what voices to engage with. But as much as I think it might be dangerous precedent to ban any form of speech, I think it's all the more dangerous to allow extreme hateful opinions and disinformation that can lead to actual harm to be broadcast without check.

And that is why Free Speech is so important. Being squashed and deindexed by Google, websites who do not get discovered, they are not given a platform. (...) Big Tech is a huge enemy, and they are ahead of the curve. Google even erased the "Do no evil" b.s. as I recall from their mission statement.

In this entire conversation very few seem to acknowledge that Google and the rest of big tech are private companies, and, while they have to abide by the laws of the countries where they operate, there is nothing preventing them from making their own rules.

Choosing your customers can be entirely within the boundaries of free speech. That can mean "deplatforming" some - using quotes here because you're free to buy another domain, start another blog, email your audience directly, and Google/Twitter don't owe you anything.

It is not Google's responsibility or mission to give everyone a platform.

Should it be? Perhaps that's an ideal situation, but frankly I see no way for that to happen in a capitalist society.

Ultimately, I would argue that while these "enemies" need to be kept in check, we live in a world where free speech is much much freer than before Google, Twitter and Facebook. But free speech ain't free.
 
Last edited:
0
•••
1
•••
Choosing your customers can be entirely within the boundaries of free speech. That can mean "deplatforming" some - using quotes here because you're free to buy another domain, start another blog, email your audience directly, and Google/Twitter don't owe you anything.

Apparently the EU doesn't agree with you about "making their own rules", but it was just a small fine. No real big deal at all... heck no big deal at all you know... Only $10 Billion so far. lol. Soon the US will wake up and do something also.

"BRUSSELS (AP) — Europe’s antitrust regulators slapped Google with a big fine Wednesday for the third time in less than two years, ordering the tech giant to pay 1.49 billion euros ($1.7 billion) for freezing out rivals in the online advertising business.

https://apnews.com/701658e16440433f840e15869b101fa8

The ruling brings to nearly $10 billion the fines imposed against Google by the European Union. And it comes at a time when big tech companies around the world are facing increasing regulatory pressure and fierce political attacks over privacy violations, online misinformation, hate speech and other abuses."
 
1
•••
...
And yet, I can't shake the thought that free speech is not the absolute most important thing in a society.
.. Practical free speech is different, then, than free speech in the abstract...

..Can someone explain to me why it is desirable to allow people to deny the Holocaust? (Beyond the slippery slope argument, which is insufficient in my mind)...

Ultimately, I agree with Bernard's conclusion - you can choose what voices to engage with. But as much as I think it might be dangerous precedent to ban any form of speech, I think it's all the more dangerous to allow extreme hateful opinions and disinformation that can lead to actual harm to be broadcast without check....
Should it be? Perhaps that's an ideal situation, but frankly I see no way for that to happen in a capitalist society.

Ultimately, I would argue that while these "enemies" need to be kept in check, we live in a world where free speech is much much freer than before Google, Twitter and Facebook. But free speech ain't free.

thanks a lot.
you found a good way to describe it.


...
Ultimately, I agree with Bernard's conclusion - you can choose what voices to engage with.

that is true for the intelligent adult person only.

you want to protect children
and easy to be manipulated person from that
I guess.




that is a little complex
so not everybody will agree
 
1
•••
  • The sidebar remains visible by scrolling at a speed relative to the page’s height.
Back