Another "Bidding on your own names" ???

tonecas said:

on the spot. ICANN RAA stipulates that there should be a renew grace period but does not set a minimum for it. If a registrar states that a owner has X days for renewing after the expiration date there should be NO auction on the domain during that period. Anything else is abusing the owner's rights.

this should be simple to understand and comply, but it seems it is not. and in the lack of a proper monitoring and enforcement entity, which ICANN refuses to be almost in a way that seems on purpose by letting loopholes open for years, this leads to behaviors like this from registrars.

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Right On!

Grilled said:

Thank you for the FAST response @Joe Styler - You've developed enough cred on the forum over the years to take your word for it. Please pardon my comment, as in part, it stems from @NameJetGM reaction [or inaction] to the uncovering of shill bidding on their platform, and how poorly (IMO) they have handled it.

For safe measure, can you provide me [or the NamePros community] with an email or contact to the department that monitors shill bidding? Given the extent of some questionable bidding may have occurred on NameJet, I am concerned (among other things) that it may have spread to other platforms during the time of the CHIP boom. I have seen no evidence of this happening on GoDaddy, but I haven't looked either.

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you can email [email protected]

tonecas said:

on the spot. ICANN RAA stipulates that there should be a renew grace period but does not set a minimum for it. If a registrar states that a owner has X days for renewing after the expiration date there should be NO auction on the domain during that period. Anything else is abusing the owner's rights.

this should be simple to understand and comply, but it seems it is not. and in the lack of a proper monitoring and enforcement entity, which ICANN refuses to be almost in a way that seems on purpose by letting loopholes open for years, this leads to behaviors like this from registrars.

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There is no loophole here we are in full compliance with ICANN rules and that is something that is very important to us as a company.

Joe Styler said:

There is no loophole here we are in full compliance with ICANN rules and that is something that is very important to us as a company.

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no loophole? you must be joking. you are auctioning a domain that has a owner. you are not the owner until the renew grace expires. you are not entitled to auction a domain name because you have no rights whatsoever on it. only in a unscrupulous and uncontrolled business this is allowed.

i know that this is very important to your company. that's the point. money talks.

your business and other Registrars business is registering domains for your clients and cross sell other services (email, hosting, etc), not taking domains from your clients.

you are only allowed to do this because ICANN makes a blind eye to it.

same as Registrars warehousing expired domains and not releasing them to public. again, a loophole on the rules so it is legitimate business, but totally unethical.

you are in a difficult spot, to defend your company on such a clear issue. I don't envy your position but things must be said like they are.

please give your reasons why you are entitled to auction a domain name to which an owner can renew, thus have rights over it? the only reason is: your are allowed to by ICANN because they to not address this issue and leave the loophole open to this and any other scheme.

We have a pretty big legal team. They are the ones who figure out compliance. I go by what the lawyers say which I believe is the smartest way to proceed as I am not a lawyer and don't think I should be interpreting the obligations. I know ICANN compliance is very important for us and any project we do passed through the legal and compliance teams among others as this one did. Also we are a public company and on our quarterly earnings calls we are among other things asked if we are compliant to ICANN. We are also audited by outside companies who act in the interest of protecting their investors and not in our interest, they are a neutral third party. I listen to these earnings calls and have not heard us say we are not in compliance once. You're welcome to listen in the information is as gddy.com. I do not believe saying we are acting against ICANN regulations is correct as we have more than one party checking on this.
So bottom line is my statement that we are in compliance with ICANN is not based on my opinion but on the word of many lawyers both inside and outside this company.

tonecas said:

no loophole? you must be joking. you are auctioning a domain that has a owner. you are not the owner until the renew grace expires. you are not entitled to auction a domain name because you have no rights whatsoever on it. only in a unscrupulous and uncontrolled business this is allowed.

i know that this is very important to your company. that's the point. money talks.

your business and other Registrars business is registering domains for your clients and cross sell other services (email, hosting, etc), not taking domains from your clients.

you are only allowed to do this because ICANN makes a blind eye to it.

same as Registrars warehousing expired domains and not releasing them to public. again, a loophole on the rules so it is legitimate business, but totally unethical.

you are in a difficult spot, to defend your company on such a clear issue. I don't envy your position but things must be said like they are.

please give your reasons why you are entitled to auction a domain name to which an owner can renew, thus have rights over it? the only reason is: your are allowed to by ICANN because they to not address this issue and leave the loophole open to this and any other scheme.

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GoDaddy have changed their renewal procedures so that you now only get 30 days to renew a domain. ICANN don't stipulate a registrars renewal procedure. This is why Joe can claim they are still in full compliance of ICANN rules. No consideration of their existing customers previous rights, which have just been trampled on.

tonecas said:

ICANN RAA stipulates that there should be a renew grace period but does not set a minimum for it. If a registrar states that a owner has X days for renewing after the expiration d

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Help me out here. I am confused here between what you and Stub are stating. The 30 days is ICANN maximum, so now that is the date and no auction prior to release of the name on day 31 which status changes to pending delete.

http://archive.icann.org/en/registrars/gtld-lifecycle.jpg

I posted the infographic earlier in the thread, straight from ICANN.. Seems simple to me, the registrant loses rights on day 31. That is the maximum date of renewal grace period.

@Joe Styler, of course your are legal compliant. I am the first person to say that !

the issue is you are compliant because of a legal subterfuge that is allowed by ICANN. and I even go the extra mile by saying this is intentional on their part as they are only there to protect big company's interests.

they are not publicly accountable, and operate on a laissez-faire framework, not giving a damn for the regular Joe.

GoDaddy is operating under a legal framework, but an unethical one, and exploring a legal loophole. there is no way GoDaddy can deny this, however you may try to embezzle it.

of course I am not also expecting that you or anyone else on GoDaddy will recognize this.

but to give you a candy and be fair to your company, you are probably the only big registrar that hasn't done warehousing of domains. that is another loophole and the most unethical one, even illegal because not all laws are legal. you went straight buying portfolios.

Anyone is free to sign up for an ICANN working group as an individual or company. You are able to do this and get your voice heard when they are coming up with policy decisions. If you are unhappy with the way the policies are now you can be part of the process. You can find more information on ICANN's website. I signed up and it is very easy to get started.

I'm heading out for Thanksgiving. I will see you all next week. Have a good holiday or rest of the week.

offthehandle said:

Help me out here. I am confused here between what you and Stub are stating. The 30 days is ICANN maximum, so now that is the date and no auction prior to release of the name on day 31 which status changes to pending delete.

http://archive.icann.org/en/registrars/gtld-lifecycle.jpg

I posted the infographic earlier in the thread, straight from ICANN.. Seems simple to me, the registrant loses rights on day 31. That is the maximum date of renewal grace period.

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@offthehandle, what ICANN says is that a registrar MAY offer up to 45 days of renew grace period, for the top gTLDs (other rules apply for ccTLDs, for instance). it is up to a Registrar to define the period but the general practice is 35 days. AFTER 35 days, the registrar MUST release the domain to the general public, by placing it first on a redemption period, that lasts for 30 days exactly. During this period a Registrant can recover the domain by paying a fee (to the Registrar and Registry).

what happens here is that there is a loophole placed intentionally. A Registrar is not prohibit to take a domain AFTER the renew grace period and auction it. It is not even prohibit to take the domain for itself! Nonwidtsnding that ICANN rules (Registrar Accreditation Agreement - RAA : https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/approved-with-specs-2013-09-17-en#whois) state very clearly that:

3.7.5 At the conclusion of the registration period, failure by or on behalf of the Registered Name Holder to consent that the registration be renewed within the time specified in a second notice or reminder shall, in the absence of extenuating circumstances, result in cancellation of the registration by the end of the auto-renew grace period (although Registrar may choose to cancel the name earlier).

3.7.5.1 Extenuating circumstances are defined as: UDRP action, valid court order, failure of a Registrar's renewal process (which does not include failure of a registrant to respond), the domain name is used by a nameserver that provides DNS service to third-parties (additional time may be required to migrate the records managed by the nameserver), the registrant is subject to bankruptcy proceedings, payment dispute (where a registrant claims to have paid for a renewal, or a discrepancy in the amount paid), billing dispute (where a registrant disputes the amount on a bill), domain name subject to litigation in a court of competent jurisdiction, or other circumstance as approved specifically by ICANN.

3.7.5.2 Where Registrar chooses, under extenuating circumstances, to renew a domain name without the explicit consent of the registrant, the registrar must maintain a record of the extenuating circumstances associated with renewing that specific domain name for inspection by ICANN consistent with clauses 3.4.2 and 3.4.3 of this registrar accreditation agreement.

3.7.5.3 In the absence of extenuating circumstances (as defined in Section 3.7.5.1 above), a domain name must be deleted within 45 days of either the registrar or the registrant terminating a registration agreement.


this is when the legal void/loophole starts. a Registrar must renew a domain at the Registry to offer the renew grace period to the Registrant. The rules were made for the case that if the Registrant didn't renew the domain until the end of the grace period, then the Registrar shall be entitled to a refund and place the domain in a Redemption Period.

however this has been abused over the years because Registrars then pass the domain ownership to another entity (many times they even do not bother to do that !) taking advantage of the legal technicalities and voids presented on the RAA. That is why they are allowed to auction domains and, worst, take ownership of expired domains if they want to.

offthehandle said:

Help me out here. I am confused here between what you and Stub are stating. The 30 days is ICANN maximum, so now that is the date and no auction prior to release of the name on day 31 which status changes to pending delete.

http://archive.icann.org/en/registrars/gtld-lifecycle.jpg

I posted the infographic earlier in the thread, straight from ICANN.. Seems simple to me, the registrant loses rights on day 31. That is the maximum date of renewal grace period.

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I know that graphic pretty well. The ICANN Auto Renewal Grace Period is between 0 and 45 days. GoDaddy have chopped off the last 15 days for themselves, by changing their Renewal Policy. Their Renewal Policy was between 0-42 days. Their new Renewal Policy is between 0-30 days. They are perfectly entitled to do this because ICANN allow each Registrar to have their own Renewal Policy. Consequently. They are not in contravention of any ICANN Policy.

I always praised GoDaddy's Renewal Policy of 0-42 days. They said this was to give the actual domain owner the greatest time possible to renew their domain. For the good of the existing registrant. Only now, they given up all those good feelings to the existing registrant and lopped off 12 days from their old Renewal Policy. The existing owner can now go whistle in the wind, after 30 days, they've lost their domain. So they've penalized the existing registrant just so they can clean up the mess with their auctions.

Does that explain things better?

stub said:

I know that graphic pretty well. The ICANN Auto Renewal Grace Period is between 0 and 45 days. GoDaddy have chopped off the last 15 days for themselves, by changing their Renewal Policy. Their Renewal Policy was between 0-42 days. Their new Renewal Policy is between 0-30 days. They are perfectly entitled to do this because ICANN allow each Registrar to have their own Renewal Policy. Consequently. They are not in contravention of any ICANN Policy.

I always praised GoDaddy's Renewal Policy of 0-42 days. They said this was to give the actual domain owner the greatest time possible to renew their domain. For the good of the existing registrant. Only now, they given up all those good feelings to the existing registrant and lopped off 12 days from their old Renewal Policy. The existing owner can now go whistle in the wind, after 30 days, they've lost their domain. So they've penalized the existing registrant just so they can clean up the mess with their auctions.

Does that explain things better?

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That is not what I understood. I wrote above and mentioned the end of the blue line. I didnt get the email as I moved names off the platform slowly and only have a few there, the auctions I lost enough time with auctions wasted time and renewals, so moved on. I thought the auction date was *after* the 30 day redemption grace period which follows the 45 day auto renew grace period.

So, I understand somewhat. Please don’t be offended, as I don’t want to be critical of you or others struggling with sales and renewals... but there are solutions like having fewer names, more wholesaling, and managing cash flow problems or using credit cards would solve this. After my many years of self employment, I had to use credit cards when sales were down. I don’t know how many names you are holding, but this illiquid business I can see being stressful at renewal time. Keep smiling.

.

offthehandle said:

That is not what I understood. I wrote above and mentioned the end of the blue line. I didnt get the email as I moved names off the platform slowly and only have a few there, the auctions I lost enough time with auctions wasted time and renewals, so moved on. I thought the auction date was *after* the 30 day redemption grace period which follows the 45 day auto renew grace period.

So, I understand somewhat. Please don’t be offended, as I don’t want to be critical of you or others struggling with sales and renewals... but there are solutions like having fewer names, more wholesaling, and managing cash flow problems or using credit cards would solve this. After my many years of self employment, I had to use credit cards when sales were down. I don’t know how many names you are holding, but this illiquid business I can see being stressful at renewal time. Keep smiling.

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I'm not offended. You are being polite and non-offensive. My last reply is exactly what GoDaddy have done. I believe it's very clear what they have done. Reduced our renewal time to 30 days in favor of sorting out the mess with their auctions. Thereby favoring their auctions customers over existing registrants. You originally were asking because you saw some discrepancies between my post and @tonecas. But to be honest, I think your original and subsequent post, show some muddled thinking. And I was just trying to straighten that out, by, as clearly, as I can, state what I meant by my posts. And I think I've done that. Any problems you might have with @tonecas's posts, you would have to ask him. Because I can't speak for him. Also I'm not being offensive with my "muddled thinking" comment above. I don't get what you are meaning. Which is why I took the time to explain the position GoDaddy have taken. As I think, correctly.

Thereby favoring their auctions customers over existing registrants.

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So enough of the BS that they care about their existing customers. It doesn't wash. They have a history of mistreating their existing customers. Like when they close websites down without any fair discussion with the existing registrant, at 5pm on a Friday, exactly the time they close the dept for the weekend. And treat them like pariahs.

GD are again showing their real colors, mistreating their existing customers, in favor of another group/class of customers. You have been warned (for years).

stub said:

My last reply is exactly what GoDaddy have done. But to be honest, I think your original and subsequent post, show some muddled thinking.

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I am still muddling around. Trying not track it all over. Lol.

The entire flaw here as I understand you describe it is the date of which “title” can truly be passed from the old registrant to the new one. Right? Let’s both agree that nobody should be selling your “property” without your consent. Likewise, Nobody should be allowed to “buy” your “property” at auction until you have given your consent- which in this situation is a decision not to renew. That date of nonrenewal has been shortened 12 days. Right? So, those 12 days are the difference. If that is now correct, I understand your point. You would like the extra 12 days of right of renewal you have now had been taken from you. But in reality, what are 12 days buying you? You paid for 365 days, but GD and other registries are actually giving you for free an extra 30 free extra days aren’t you? That is what the chart shows.

I want assume and give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not one of those other people purposely leaving names to be auctioned for a free appraisal as others on this forum have indicated they do. As a seasoned business person, I guess I don’t understand what difference 12 days make in the grand scheme of this sort business. This isn’t perishable material like Ice cream that is melting, or christmas trees unsold on December 23rd, or a Black Friday sale with finite selling time. That name has been for sale for over a year, and it did not sell. In my case, a decision to let names expire I would and have been making and planning now several months before my wave of renewals come in.

From what I read between the lines is an accumulation of other problems that have occured, for several years so the frustration is more than this, like the technical support thing you mention.

What I have difficulty with is understanding why you feel it is favoritism? This is business and both buyers and sellers should be treated equally. Property should not be offered for sale that whose title is not “free and clear”. So to speak. I don’t want to buy something that isn’t for sale. The previous system was broken, and a decision to fix it was made. Registries, Registrars and ICANN have made rules.

Stub, If I am still muddled up, please let me know!

@offthehandle, i think you are missing the point. What @stub is pointing out is very clear: GoDaddy gives more preference to the auction business than their registrants business. and it is so that they are clipping the renew grace period to "make things more clear".

this is not a problem only with GoDaddy. It has become pervasive. Auction business for major registrars has become a major source of income and not the core business to which they should have always been dedicated to: serving domain registration to costumers. That was their mandate and still is, despite ICANN rules purposely keeping the loopholes open so that they may do whatever they like.

why do you think GoDaddy started a buying spree of domain portfolios in the last 2 years or so?

but at least, in their defense, they are not cherry picking expired domains for themselves like Enom, Network Solutions, Tucows, Domain/MyDomain/etc, Name and others have been doing for years.

Happy Thanksgiving!

tonecas said:

@offthehandle, i think you are missing the point. What @stub is pointing out is very clear: GoDaddy gives more preference to the auction business than their registrants business. and it is so that they are clipping the renew grace period to "make things more clear".

this is not a problem only with GoDaddy. It has become pervasive. Auction business for major registrars has become a major source of income and not the core business to which they should have always been dedicated to: serving domain registration to costumers. That was their mandate and still is, despite ICANN rules purposely keeping the loopholes open so that they may do whatever they like.

why do you think GoDaddy started a buying spree of domain portfolios in the last 2 years or so?

but at least, in their defense, they are not cherry picking expired domains for themselves like Enom, Network Solutions, Tucows, Domain/MyDomain/etc, Name and others have been doing for years.

Happy Thanksgiving!

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Thanks. Well, I guess I did miss the point somewhat. Sorry @stub

I am not happy with all the scandals and crap in such a short time in this industry. This "clawback" thing has really gotten to me.

I realize that registrars/registries are supposed to be that and not auction platforms- but that is how their business has evolved/devolved... lol. I haven't any paid attention to portfolio buyouts- but that's a good point. Not only do small domainers compete with each other but with the likes of GD on the secondary market but all the other large entities. Well, I am burned out. My brain hurts. Don't get me started on NSL, I go way back with hassles with them to 96' just on a few domains.
Enjoy the holiday!

offthehandle said:

What I have difficulty with is understanding why you feel it is favoritism? This is business and both buyers and sellers should be treated equally. Property should not be offered for sale that whose title is not “free and clear”. So to speak. I don’t want to buy something that isn’t for sale. The previous system was broken, and a decision to fix it was made. Registries, Registrars and ICANN have made rules.

Stub, If I am still muddled up, please let me know!

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Its favoritism to those participating in auctions and penalizing existing owners because they have reduced the amount of time I could renew from 42 to 30 in order to resolve the problem with auctions where owners could watch the auction, and if there was sufficient demand for their domain, they could just transfer the domain away from GoDaddy, and the winner gets shafted. But by changing their Renewals Policy to 30 days, they get around that problem. But it is still possible to transfer a domain out which is in auction, because auctions start at day 26. And no. I'm not one of those who watches my expiring domains on GoDaddy Auctions, because a long time ago I stopped using GoDaddy as my main Registrar, thankfully. Any domains I drop at GoDaddy, are intended for me to drop. So I don't need to watch their auctions. People, if they bid on my dropping GoDaddy domains, are welcome to them. Yep. The decision to fix the auction problem definitely penalizes existing registrants.

This all come from a backdrop where GoDaddy proudly announce they are extremely pro existing users because they give you 42 days to transfer away domains. But because they have a problem with the auctions, what do they do? They immediately penalize existing owners. This has been a consistent pattern with GoDaddy. Proclaiming they are pro existing users, when in fact the opposite is true.