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This train has probably left. Domaining... as in starting right now from scratch.

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twiki

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I think it's too late for someone to start domaining these days.

( Yeah, I know a few might eventually succeed - but that'll be quite rare, I think. )

I mean, what are the odds now for someone who has no skills but just the will to try it?

I started domaining just a few years ago. But then, it was still the real bonanza. Whatever you had, it sold. Price high, price low, nevertheless it sold. That's how I made it into profit in my third year, gradually improving.

Auctions were cheap, domains were cheaper, drops were full of juice. Closeouts, good stuff still falling through the net for us to grab.

Not anymore. 2022 came and passed.

Everything is overpriced now, people probably holding stuff waiting for better times OR for future plans, who knows. And yeah it's clear that you can't make a living when buying domains retail price from the market. You might recoup the monies in a few years, who knows, but it's too risky. And you'll have the money locked in it. And unless you have the $ to buy few high-value names, you are going to also burn money in renewals.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not complaining. This isn't about me. I'm alright, and at least in portfolio quality I'm definitely seeing betterment. And yeah, it's also not about the top investors who are still rolling cash although the numbers have diminished a little lately.

It's about someone new, willing to take the plunge and start today. I really don't see it to happen. The sales squeeze means that growing portfolio in the first place from $500 and some beginners luck ain't going to work anymore.

You need a serious budget to start with. And some itch to see it all spent soon...? And you need to make that budget triple at least; as for the next few years you're going to burn through it like there's no tomorrow. And after those years, maybe then, you're going to finally see the end of the tunnel that is the current market and if you have improved enough, then maybe, just maybe you'll see some return on all this hard work, money spent and risk taken.

I look at these guys and dunno if I should encourage them or tell them what they are getting into, and what are the odds.

Your thoughts?
 
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The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
Twiki and Twilight... Doom and Gloom :)
:xf.grin:

Nah, title is admittedly probably a bit exaggerated... But some part of the stuff is tough right now, yeah.

But it's not all doom and gloom. Otherwise we'd all be somewhere else instead.

Edit: What comes after twilight? Sunrise again... it seems. But not immediately, so it might still take a bit.

Edit2: Another (good) side of current stage is, it's going to bring maturity to the niche.

Dabbling, probably doesn't work out anymore. But those who know their business and put the money and work in, will still have good margins and make money though. I expect however a general recovery once growth starts again, and that's somewhere in 3 to 5 years from now own (my estimation, yours could be different).
 
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My biggest regret is buying too many domains,if I had to do it all over id buy 10 10k domains[wholesale ] list them for 200 each ,and renew them for 6.99 for 20 years each and forget them till you hit the lottery every few months, weather you domain is worth 5 bucks or 50 million ,its still a 10 buck renewal these days
You can still do it. Clear your domains, raise the money and buy a few good domains instead.

The buy part, gonna be tricky though.
 
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:xf.grin:

Nah, title is admittedly probably a bit exaggerated... But some part of the stuff is tough right now, yeah.

But it's not all doom and gloom. Otherwise we'd all be somewhere else instead.

Edit: What comes after twilight? Sunrise again... it seems. But not immediately, so it might still take a bit.

Edit2: Another (good) side of current stage is, it's going to bring maturity to the niche.

Dabbling, probably doesn't work out anymore. But those who know their business and put the money and work in, will still have good margins and make money though. I expect however a general recovery once growth starts again, and that's somewhere in 3 to 5 years from now own (my estimation, yours could be different).

I mean I don't disagree with most of what you said.

The basics for the profitable business are there. But the cost of learning curve got steeper so starting would be harder and will get harder for the next 3 years if a) Verisign goes ahead with 7% annual increase for .com b) the economy stays sluggish or gets worse c) both.

It takes time and actual spending and holding names to develop the sense what really sells. No Namebio or NP sales thread can substitute for your own actual portfolio data.

I am sure there is still a way, just it will require more persistence, luck etc. And getting a successful mentor who will agree to hold your hand for while can help to figure out what to buy without burning through the savings.
 
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I mean I don't disagree with most of what you said.

The basics for the profitable business are there. But the cost of learning curve got steeper so starting would be harder and will get harder for the next 3 years if a) Verisign goes ahead with 7% annual increase for .com b) the economy stays sluggish or gets worse c) both.

It takes time and actual spending and holding names to develop the sense what really sells. No Namebio or NP sales thread can substitute for your own actual portfolio data.

I am sure there is still a way, just it will require more persistence, luck etc. And getting a successful mentor who will agree to hold your hand for while can help to figure out what to buy without burning through the savings.

The mentor... yes. Hard to get one though, I think.

Many newbies however don't even wanna listen.

TBH I made it rather fast I'd say (2 years spent before profit, the second being almost break even at > $100K spent in the second year, well isn't that bad I guess) because I LISTENED to the folks older in the biz.

I got these two pieces of advice as a beginner:

- As a newbie, focus on .COMs;

- Don't jump on regging domains, buy preowned ones. Most beginners lose money by regging all sorts of crap.

This made the difference for me. Yes I knew I'm made for this (somehow you feel it), yes I had a budget and business background; but still, the above have contributed a lot to it. I still got some crap at drops, we all make mistakes, but this has helped a lot.
 
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The mentor... yes. Hard to get one though, I think.

Many newbies however don't even wanna listen.

TBH I made it rather fast I'd say (2 years spent before profit, the second being almost break even at > $100K spent in the second year, well isn't that bad I guess) because I LISTENED to the folks older in the biz.

I got these two pieces of advice as a beginner:

- As a newbie, focus on .COMs;

- Don't jump on regging domains, buy preowned ones. Most beginners lose money by regging all sorts of crap.

This made the difference for me. Yes I knew I'm made for this (somehow you feel it), yes I had a budget and business background; but still, the above have contributed a lot to it. I still got some crap at drops, we all make mistakes, but this has helped a lot.

I don't think I ever had an unprofitable year with domains.

But that could be due to my background and my original interest in domains as an option to start business around specific ideas, plus formal education (full time MBA majoring in Marketing and Finance from Emory U.) in the field that helps tremendously.

In other words, I start from the question "what names can be good for a business and can contribute to its success". For this reason, btw, I don't invest in .xyz and similar, because I simply believe starting a business on something like that is plain bad for it. I mean they might be fine for the pony land businesses of web3 until the fad goes away, but, again, not my piece of bread.

And even today, if someone would start from a) getting a great proficiency in English (most investment grade domains are based upon this language); b) studying branding c) studying the basics of domain buying d) observing how actual businesses name themselves and improving your own built-in "sense of brand", then he can still succeed without losing a lot of money.

I think @blogspotter is a great example of being tremendously successful with very late start, but huge focus on learning the fundamentals of the trade.
 
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But the cost of learning curve got steeper so starting would be harder

It depends. If you've got more spare time than money...

The cheapest way to get in are the drops/handregs. Dedicate one year (or two) to watch and observer but DO NOT BUY.

Make a list containing every domain you think is good and watch what happens. After the drop, does it get picked up pretty fast? If so, what happens to it? Monitor your list for sales, ownership changes etc.

Watch closely and you'll develop a sense of what's worth picking up, if you've got it in you.

It's not the fastest route I'll admit. Then again, domaining isn't fast money :)
 
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It depends. If you've got more spare time than money...

The cheapest way to get in are the drops/handregs. Dedicate one year (or two) to watch and observer but DO NOT BUY.

Make a list containing every domain you think is good and watch what happens. After the drop, does it get picked up pretty fast? If so, what happens to it? Monitor your list for sales, ownership changes etc.

Watch closely and you'll develop a sense of what's worth picking up, if you've got it in you.

It's not the fastest route I'll admit. Then again, domaining isn't fast money :)

Just observing won't get you far. It is not stock exchange and you cannot create a dummy portfolio and see how it is doing. You won't know what sold for how much etc.

The only way is a) spend time learning fundamentals b) buy 100-200 names within a year; c) list everywhere, set up landers, try to be pro-active with sales just to gauge if you were right about your names and they cause any interest at all d) based on your learnings, trim the first batch a little (or a lot), and buy few hundred names more e) repeat the other steps; f) rinse and repeat the cycle again for another year.
 
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The cheapest way to get in are the drops/handregs. Dedicate one year (or two) to watch and observer but DO NOT BUY.

Make a list containing every domain you think is good and watch what happens. After the drop, does it get picked up pretty fast? If so, what happens to it? Monitor your list for sales, ownership changes etc.

Watch closely and you'll develop a sense of what's worth picking up, if you've got it in you.

100% agree.

This is the advice I'd give to myself if I could time travel back to my 1st year (2015-2016).

Studying, observing and note-taking is critical to developing a strategy before actually investing real money.

The discipline needed to abstain from buying anything during your rookie year is crucial to long term success. The majority of entrants will enter domain investing and blow their bankroll within year 1 or 2.

I'd have been among that group if I hadn't made a high 4 figure sale a week or two before I'd decided to drop out. I got lucky, and a hail Mary gamble paid off in month 7 or 8 for me covering all my prior loses.

There are so many opportunities to lose big money quickly in domain speculating, a 6-24 months observation and study only period is highly recommended before spending $$$.
 
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The OP says with no skills. Well nobody's going succeed with no skills...

There are loads of skills that make the chances of success higher.

It also depends on how you measure success.
 
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I am opposed to advise "observe and do nothing". And I more agree with the tactics @Recons.Com, I regret that the whole of 2017 I only recorded the domains that I wanted to register to .doc file and did nothing. Of the 500 domains in a year, only 200 free domains remained in my file. I realized that nothing to do - shitty tactics and began to register manually. I registered 100 domains during the year and sold one who paid off all my costs. I was not so rich to take part in expired domains auctions. I myself began to create domains from scratch, which later gained weight and were liked by potential customers. This is bad tactics from the point of view of who we now consider Domainer, but this is a very good tactic for those who do not have a lot of money. All my domains now are sold more than $ 2000 and my STR over the past year amounted to 1%. In the year before last, my STR was 2%. The fall is associated with a bad world economic situation. I prefer deals to words. Otherwise, success will not to be reached.
 
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Just observing won't get you far. It is not stock exchange and you cannot create a dummy portfolio and see how it is doing. You won't know what sold for how much etc.

Sure you can. There's a lot of info you can gather from historical owner data. Even with privacy enabled the registrar a domain ends up with will tell you.

Combine that with namebio/GD/sedo/dan sales data, development of sites. Lots of data you can gather by reading between the lines.

Best thing is, you can fully automate running a shadow/dummy portfolio. Bare minimal investment to gain some insight.

I'm not advocating this method will get you to the point that you will make enough to be a pro but it will allow you get a foot in the door and make a nice profit, then take it from there.

It's not guaranteed success, I agree. Like stocks, once you start to automate and scale things up, you'll notice patterns. At scale you don't need a big margin, you need numbers.

Small profits keeps adding up over the years.

Bottom line... There's not one truth. There's not a paved method to make it in this industry. If you're contemplating on taking a shot, enter fully prepared, be willing to learn and... be prepared for exit/failure, like any other industry.
 
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I think the best you can with domaining is have it a side hustle. Get a job that pays decent money if possible and then whatever comes in is an extra income, at least in the beginning.
If you learn the basics, domaining doesn't require that much time.
Just have a good hassle free registrar (DD).
Definitely grow your portfolio organicaly and don't start matching words that sound good together hoping they will sell. Most likely, they won't sell.
If you turn out to be talented in domaining and very succesful over the years, you could probably be a full time domainer.
 
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We're not born as domainers. So, each one may have some advantage (professional or personal background, etc.). Why not to use it then... For example.

Are you a good web designer or developer? Then spend some time and develop 100% custom landing pages. For all domains - bin, marketplace listings, makeoffer, whatever. Not wordpress, not squarespace or wix. If done right, the advantages would be that great (going deep would be offtopic here) so you'll never go back to dan or afternic dns. You will have to accept new 25% afternic commission if you also list on afternic though. Buydomains has own pages, also hugedomains, Mike Mann... You should too :) In this case, for example, you will have no reasons to complain "or, gd shut uni down, how do I continue self brokerage???"

Do you speak any other languages? It is your advantage then. I speak Spanish and Russian, and had success with pure .com domains in these languages. Domaining is worldwide. Those familiar with Chinese and Arabic can confirm... Do not try to register domains on languages you do not understand though.

Or, maybe you have some rare profession, lets say refrigeration engineer? OK, do some brainstorming in an area you are familiar with and generate some AI-related domains to handreg. Either in .com or maybe .ai ... Your professional background should help to generate good domains (I mean saleable, not "kosher pork").
 
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Sure you can. There's a lot of info you can gather from historical owner data. Even with privacy enabled the registrar a domain ends up with will tell you.

Combine that with namebio/GD/sedo/dan sales data, development of sites. Lots of data you can gather by reading between the lines.

Best thing is, you can fully automate running a shadow/dummy portfolio. Bare minimal investment to gain some insight.

I'm not advocating this method will get you to the point that you will make enough to be a pro but it will allow you get a foot in the door and make a nice profit, then take it from there.

It's not guaranteed success, I agree. Like stocks, once you start to automate and scale things up, you'll notice patterns. At scale you don't need a big margin, you need numbers.

Small profits keeps adding up over the years.

Bottom line... There's not one truth. There's not a paved method to make it in this industry. If you're contemplating on taking a shot, enter fully prepared, be willing to learn and... be prepared for exit/failure, like any other industry.

Well, you do what works best for you.

I have used my way and scaled up to 26000+ .coms

You simply cannot draw the same quality and type of analytics from sales data by other people.

Because, you don't know how many of similar names you have to hold for that one sale to happen. Or you cannot carry out a/b tests with other people's inventory.
 
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You can take a subsequent train, and yes you arrive late, but the party is not over
 
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🛠️ The space is surely evolving. We'd simply encourage those of us who've been in the game, and had some success, to consider what the optics convey when telling a hopeful investor they practically have no chance at succeeding. Especially when "the tools are plentiful" and "opportunities are created".

🛢️ Yesterday's domain investing was ground-level. It could be likened to making money off the liquid gold known as oil. As we enter this era of battery technology (like it or not), a new playing-field is emerging for the next generation of visionaries to discover, mine and "pass on value". The same with domains.

⌚ It's easy to ridicule those coming in; but we do our best to encourage new investors to be creative and resourceful. Both can get them far with the right amount of patience and timing. We feel it's unnecessary to discount a person's ability to succeed based upon views on "good name" availability. As long as the internet is relevant, and words mean something, there's a chance to thrive.

🤝 Remember, where there's a will, there's a way. Life is full of opportunities to chart new paths. It's a matter of whether one's resilience opens the door to this realization. We believe in the newcomers and what they can achieve. They have a lot to learn; but the vets still have a lot of room to be taught.

🏃 As far as we're concerned, the difference is the latter had a head-start.

🗣️ QUAD DOMAINS
 
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This is a great thread no matter which side of the coin you are on. Thanks to all who have contributed, and to @twiki for starting the thread.

First, I wanted to highlight a couple of things said by others that I think are really important.
I think @blogspotter is a great example of being tremendously successful with very late start, but huge focus on learning the fundamentals of the trade.
100%. @blogspotter has shown that with drive, a learning focus, flexibility, and constant attention to feedback of what is working, you can still be successful. Truly an inspiration, and shares so effectively and frequently. Starting out, pay attention to what be is saying, but also....

We're not born as domainers. So, each one may have some advantage (professional or personal background, etc.). Why not to use it
I think this is the most important thing too many are ignoring, trying to emulate someone who is perceived to be successful, or catching a trend they don't really understand at any deep level. We each bring different expertise to domain investing. Use what you know to give yourself a competitive advantage.

I have been pondering for a few days my thoughts on the central question whether it is still a worthwhile time to start in domain investing. I think this is my take...

Each stage of domain investing had a golden era and best time to enter. For example, the very early people, like Gary Kremen saw the opportunity that the Internet would replace newspaper classified ads, which at that time were big revenue generators. That was the perfect time to get names that would relate to topics in classified and personal ads.

A bit later, in the lead up and early expansion of the dot-com bubble, there was a transformation as stores went to online selling, and product and service names were all the rage. Those who got big portfolios in the early stage of that did stupendously well, including the people who we see as the early giants of domain investing.

There have been other opportunities. When the pandemic started, there was gloom about impact on domain investing. But it turns out that the it was just the opposite, as companies ramped up online presences, hybrid became the mantra in many types of service, and the rate of small business startup increased strongly in most of the world.

So where are we now? Hard to know and there is no sure thing, but the domain investors who have done super well have usually sensed what was coming next.

Is it a bad time to start? Certainly arguments could be made around increasing auction prices, increasing monopolization of aftermarket choices, higher renewal rates, more domain investors, economic uncertainty, higher interest rates, the disruption of the decentralized 'domains', etc. There are fewer worthwhile names in legacy extensions available, even if you can afford the asking prices.

But that could be an advantage too. We have seen some have great success with .io, .co, .xyz and .ai, as well as other TLDs, partly because of the growing scarcity in desirable single-word .coms.

But we also have many other advantages. We have better access to information. I think most investors depend on dotDB as one data point for acquisition considerations. It only came out about 2018, I think.

ExpiredDomains.net is an essential resource for most investors. I think it started in 2011, but it is so much more powerful now. Those starting out in domain investing in 2023 have a host of useful tools that were not available in the past.

Many investors do well by concentrating on the brandable space. BB has been around for some time and still going strong. I think there is definitely room for one or more new entries in that field, but it is probably hard to imagine a brandable domain world without SquadHelp. I think SH started in 2010, but the early SH was very focussed on contests, and not nearly like it is today.

Speaking of SH, it is truly impressive how fast they are implementing AI in their product. If you have not tried the AI-descriptions I urge you to do so. Or got to one of your premium names, suggest a sector, and see what it generates for how your name fits that sector, including a list of great potential taglines. I think how domain names are presented will never be the same.

-Bob

PS On the issue of starting budget, I don't subscribe to the idea one needs to start with a large initial investment. In fact, the learning curve is so long, I think there is some merit in not starting with a lot of money to burn through.
 
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Well, you do what works best for you.

I have used my way and scaled up to 26000+ .coms

You simply cannot draw the same quality and type of analytics from sales data by other people.

Because, you don't know how many of similar names you have to hold for that one sale to happen. Or you cannot carry out a/b tests with other people's inventory.

Well, the average domainer isn't looking to scale up to 26K :)

But yes, there are some caveats. I think it's always best to grow a portfolio organically over time and like mentioned, it's easier with proper funding when you start out. Like any other business someone would start.

For people entering I would really recommend to set hard targets. Like Twiki, who expected and was ok with running at a loss for the first couple of years.

Hard to give solid advice really as every portfolio is different and owners have different targets.

Good thoughts to ponder on in this thread though.
 
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There are new opportunities everywhere everyday


I think we need to keep evolving, but first one need to know the basics and the ins and out of domaining.

There are tons of smart people crushing it..and I am not referring to those who happened to own all the good one word .coms for 20 years

Tons of people buying and selling today.. Just look at the auctions.. they are no fools who are paying good money everyday.
 
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@twiki Thanks for this thread. I'm not sure but I think Michael Berkens is the author of this quote:

"Domain investing is like panning for gold in the Internet streams. There is still gold to be found, but you have to work harder and smarter to find it."

images


As long as we have a pan and some stream we should be fine! :xf.smile:
 
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@twiki Thanks for this thread. I'm not sure but I think Michael Berkens is the author of this quote:

"Domain investing is like panning for gold in the Internet streams. There is still gold to be found, but you have to work harder and smarter to find it."

images


As long as we have a pan and some stream we should be fine! :xf.smile:
Sure. You and me but for those starting now, gonna be rather tough. But it is what it is. Some will do good, most not really. There is no time machine to take you back....
 
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its never too late. before it would be easy i am sure as i am newbie too but now it is less easy but not impossible or dead. everyday thousands growing up to have their own piece of brand on internet. so it will never be dead until internet is alive. now for buying i always focus on pricing. i always ask this question to me before buying a domain if this domain name can do $10k(desired selling price may vary) business in one year if answer is yes i will buy it and bin it for 10K. rest all indicators ranks data etc then does not matter. that domain will sell sooner or later.
 
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I think it's too late for someone to start domaining these days.

( Yeah, I know a few might eventually succeed - but that'll be quite rare, I think. )

I mean, what are the odds now for someone who has no skills but just the will to try it?

I started domaining just a few years ago. But then, it was still the real bonanza. Whatever you had, it sold. Price high, price low, nevertheless it sold. That's how I made it into profit in my third year, gradually improving.

Auctions were cheap, domains were cheaper, drops were full of juice. Closeouts, good stuff still falling through the net for us to grab.

Not anymore. 2022 came and passed.

Everything is overpriced now, people probably holding stuff waiting for better times OR for future plans, who knows. And yeah it's clear that you can't make a living when buying domains retail price from the market. You might recoup the monies in a few years, who knows, but it's too risky. And you'll have the money locked in it. And unless you have the $ to buy few high-value names, you are going to also burn money in renewals.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not complaining. This isn't about me. I'm alright, and at least in portfolio quality I'm definitely seeing betterment. And yeah, it's also not about the top investors who are still rolling cash although the numbers have diminished a little lately.

It's about someone new, willing to take the plunge and start today. I really don't see it to happen. The sales squeeze means that growing portfolio in the first place from $500 and some beginners luck ain't going to work anymore.

You need a serious budget to start with. And some itch to see it all spent soon...? And you need to make that budget triple at least; as for the next few years you're going to burn through it like there's no tomorrow. And after those years, maybe then, you're going to finally see the end of the tunnel that is the current market and if you have improved enough, then maybe, just maybe you'll see some return on all this hard work, money spent and risk taken.

I look at these guys and dunno if I should encourage them or tell them what they are getting into, and what are the odds.

Your thoughts?
as a completed n
I think it's too late for someone to start domaining these days.

( Yeah, I know a few might eventually succeed - but that'll be quite rare, I think. )

I mean, what are the odds now for someone who has no skills but just the will to try it?

I started domaining just a few years ago. But then, it was still the real bonanza. Whatever you had, it sold. Price high, price low, nevertheless it sold. That's how I made it into profit in my third year, gradually improving.

Auctions were cheap, domains were cheaper, drops were full of juice. Closeouts, good stuff still falling through the net for us to grab.

Not anymore. 2022 came and passed.

Everything is overpriced now, people probably holding stuff waiting for better times OR for future plans, who knows. And yeah it's clear that you can't make a living when buying domains retail price from the market. You might recoup the monies in a few years, who knows, but it's too risky. And you'll have the money locked in it. And unless you have the $ to buy few high-value names, you are going to also burn money in renewals.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not complaining. This isn't about me. I'm alright, and at least in portfolio quality I'm definitely seeing betterment. And yeah, it's also not about the top investors who are still rolling cash although the numbers have diminished a little lately.

It's about someone new, willing to take the plunge and start today. I really don't see it to happen. The sales squeeze means that growing portfolio in the first place from $500 and some beginners luck ain't going to work anymore.

You need a serious budget to start with. And some itch to see it all spent soon...? And you need to make that budget triple at least; as for the next few years you're going to burn through it like there's no tomorrow. And after those years, maybe then, you're going to finally see the end of the tunnel that is the current market and if you have improved enough, then maybe, just maybe you'll see some return on all this hard work, money spent and risk taken.

I look at these guys and dunno if I should encourage them or tell them what they are getting into, and what are the odds.
 
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As a beginner i think this thread must read for every beginner out there.
Currently everyone needs a cash flow as inflation rate is getting much higher these days as compare to income so i am offering some suggestions which i think could be beneficial for all.

* New people need proper guide because self learning not much depth which experience person can give so experience people can hire beginners for hour rate or monthly salary to give them some tasks to work on. In this way they can learn and will go towards right route.

* Everyone here some skill like some good in website designing, some in developing, some in domain selling etc like i myself consider good in research but bad in designing and marketing.
So my point here that people who have big portfolios can hire people from under develop countries and polish their skills to manage their portfolios. Yes it is risky but they can give access to only few domains.

Note: This is my opinion and anyone can be disagree with me on my points.
 
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We are in a rough patch (those happen- what goes up must come down) nothing more nothing less.

Over analyzing is not going to change anything unless the goal is to stop people from entering this business.

Has the cost of domaining gone up year after year? Of course just like everything else we pay for. There is no business or hobby that is free either. A person needs money to get in this niche and stay in it. Hopefully from sales but if not they should only spend what won’t break the bank.

I get the general point that what you could get for say $500 previously has shrunk. I remember when GD auctions ended under $30 alot of the time.

When times change you make adjustments to those changes and move forward. Being wistful about what was is not constructive. Reducing portfolios and prices is. You have to roll with the market.

My personal opinion is no one should enter this business who does not have the money to cover holding a portfolio WITHOUT SALES and who is impatient as they will be very dejected down the road.

If that sounds doom and gloom to some sorry. To me its just the facts.
 
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