Y'all wanna shoot the moon?

[Rob Monster]

ICYMI, during October, Epik sold 3 domains above $250,000.

In the interest of helping folks sell more domains for bigger money, I want to share openly what I think works pretty well when responding to retail inquiries.

Here are my two go-to response templates for answering inbound inquiries:

Template #1

Hello <firstname>,

Thanks for the inquiry.

Names of this caliber routinely sell for over $100,000.

We also sometimes do domain leases with a purchase option.

If you have budget, I will do my best to get something done for you.

Happy to advise.

Regards,
Rob



Template #2

Hello <firstname>,

Thanks for the inquiry.

You are probably looking at well into 5 figures USD for this domain.

Alternatively, it is likely possible to do a lease with a purchase option or seller-finance.

Depending on your budget, happy to advise.

Regards,
Rob


Obviously, if you have some specific comment about the domain or about the person inquiring about the prospect, that can be helpful, but usually this is a great way to just see how high is up.

During October, we saw a 2 word domain sell for $253,750. By most standards, this domain was absolutely nothing special. The domain was however strategic to the buyer.

A lot of purchase prospects end up becoming leases and financings, depending on the budget situation of the buyer. The point is to never underestimate how high is up. It is much better to: Shoot the moon!

And now you know!

 

[Michael]

Moving to a new category without discussion is nonsense. The content is overwhelmingly generous in disclosing content that should help people to sell for higher prices.

The outrage! Yes...

Use Epik SSL landers and I will help you close deals. We added at least 15,000 .COM domains in the last 12 hours so you're not alone.

For starters, I would recommend the SSL landers.

If you use our SSL lander, we'll help you with the engagement and cc or bcc you if you want to be along for the ride there.

[...]you can put them on Epik landers and we'll see how things go. I bet we outperform and that will be all you need to know.

Or transfer to Epik -- transfer promo is $7.49 now. Promos here.

If folks have domains on Epik, or use Epik SSL landers, I will happily help you with this and cc or bcc you.

Use SSL landers.

For folks who use Epik SSL landers...

As for shooting the moon, we are happy to help folks do it.

Anyway, enough poking fun. Let's get to the meat of it. Your initial post seemed to be saying to shoot for the moon on every domain. In fact, you went out of your way to mention on more than one occasion that one of the $250k sales was a two-word domain that was, and I quote, "absolutely nothing special":

During October, we saw a 2 word domain sell for $253,750. By most standards, this domain was absolutely nothing special. The domain was however strategic to the buyer. [...] The point is to never underestimate how high is up. It is much better to: Shoot the moon!

So I think it is pretty obvious that you were advocating doing this on a regular basis, regardless of domain quality, because you never know. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that. You kept saying essentially "Why not, you can always fall back to a lease." But then when people called you out on the bad advice, you did some mental gymnastics and walked your bold statement back to essentially:

1. Own good domains.
2. Set the best to make offer, and ask high prices on them.
3. Price the rest.

Or should we not price any of them? That was a bit unclear.

[...]and buys it because the registrant was duped into pricing all his domains as BIN.

I think set BIN pricing in the marketplaces. However, on your landers, set Make Offer and have a conversation with your prospects.

BIN pricing increases sales velocity significantly, this has been proven time and again by marketplaces much larger than yours, such as Sedo and Afternic. Or perhaps that's a conspiracy by the marketplaces to trick sellers into selling cheap, so the marketplaces can make less commission.

I would definitely agree with not BIN pricing your best names, but 90%+ of them should be priced, and not as moonshots. I wrote a blog post analyzing how Mike Mann does it, but clearly you think he doesn't know what he's doing either:

Actually, Mike often sells too cheap. I recently invited him to do a split test with us. I think they are going to do it, and then we can see straight-up whether I am spouting nonsense.

How kind of you to show him the way! He's only the guy that founded BuyDomains and sold it for $80 million. Then waited out his non-compete and built a massive portfolio all over again, at a time when that kind of scale is much harder to achieve. I'm sure he will learn a tremendous amount.

And then there's this gem:

Believe it or not, I have vastly more data available to me than you do. I know of what I speak. I see the transactions.

On NameBio, their data set is Swiss cheese. I rarely check it.

Epik has 380k domains in the marketplace. Assuming a generous 2% sell-through rate, you're seeing what... 7,600 sales a year? Add in your escrow service, MLS domains that sell through you, and then rounding up, I'm guessing you're privy to at most 10k sales a year through your platform. Probably less. Amazing... nobody has access to that much sales data, other than everyone who uses NameBio.

Out of curiosity, why do you rarely check it? I would assume someone who runs a marketplace would want to have his finger on the pulse, not just stay in his own little bubble. Seems a bit shortsighted, but you do you.

We have plenty of end user sales data from Sedo, Uni, DomainMarket, other brokers, and private sellers if that's all you're interested in. None from Epik though, only the elites should have access to that data.

And now you know!

I'm just glad you walked back your sensational advice to something more sensible, even if it was something we all already knew... own good domains and don't sell the best ones cheap. Oh and SSL landers.

 

[NicTraders]

I would definitely agree with not BIN pricing your best names, but 90%+ of them should be priced, and not as moonshots. I wrote a blog post analyzing how Mike Mann does it, but clearly you think he doesn't know what he's doing either:

I'd be interested in seeing that post if you can provide a link?... Thx

 

[winst]

I really like the "moonshot" analogy!

Not defending Rob (Monster), but he's advice and suggestions are coming from a registrar that is selling services, it's his job, you have to take it with a grain of salt, try out different strategies to see what works for you.

A consensus seems to emerge from this thread: realistically you don't do moonshot unless you have what it takes: the time, the inventory, done research, and some luck. If you don't have the time, hire someone to do it for you.

If Moonshot is the goal, then it needs to start with a specific types of domain name, apply the right listing and landing page, when the offer comes in, negotiating from knowing what the buyer's motivation is.

 

[Michael]

I'd be interested in seeing that post if you can provide a link?... Thx

https://namebio.com/blog/dont-shoot-for-the-moon/

 

[Rob Monster]

https://namebio.com/blog/dont-shoot-for-the-moon/

Michael,

Thanks for the analysis and for linking to the thread.

The comments on the post seem to be a bit of an echo chamber, but it is good to have the discussion and for folks to split-test their portfolios.

My central theme is to price for value, not for cost. In many cases, you won't know the theoretical value to the prospective buyer without testing that boundary.

I have given a couple of tested scripts that I have found effective in framing the discussion with potential acquirers of domains where there might be beauty in the eye of the beholder.

I have since stated the obvious, which is that some domains will not such higher price points so some discernment is needed vis-a-vis the domain and the person inquiring.

In general, an essential aspect of the consultative sale is understanding the business logic for why this person is inquiring, and the economic case for why it is compelling.

In some cases, the tactic is more strategic, e.g. a case where the inquiring party has email leakage to your domain, or where your aged domain pre-dates their trademark, etc..

As for price trends, as the digital economy becomes increasingly winner-take-all, I stand by the thesis that the middle section of the market will shift to leasing, and that shooting the moon is an essential strategy.

Operationally, my essential message is to do this with Make Offer pricing and yes, use, SSL landers in order to invite an informed consultative discussion with a known prospect (yes, we give you their full info).

As for NameBio, while I do believe your data set is Swiss cheese, as with Estibot, a dull knife is better than no knife. It is awesome that there is a (free) database of comps from which people can cherry pick.

Thanks for your efforts and Keep Shooting the Moon!

Regards,
Rob

 

[Rob Monster]

The outrage! Yes...



















Anyway, enough poking fun. Let's get to the meat of it. Your initial post seemed to be saying to shoot for the moon on every domain. In fact, you went out of your way to mention on more than one occasion that one of the $250k sales was a two-word domain that was, and I quote, "absolutely nothing special":



So I think it is pretty obvious that you were advocating doing this on a regular basis, regardless of domain quality, because you never know. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that. You kept saying essentially "Why not, you can always fall back to a lease." But then when people called you out on the bad advice, you did some mental gymnastics and walked your bold statement back to essentially:

1. Own good domains.
2. Set the best to make offer, and ask high prices on them.
3. Price the rest.

Or should we not price any of them? That was a bit unclear.





BIN pricing increases sales velocity significantly, this has been proven time and again by marketplaces much larger than yours, such as Sedo and Afternic. Or perhaps that's a conspiracy by the marketplaces to trick sellers into selling cheap, so the marketplaces can make less commission.

I would definitely agree with not BIN pricing your best names, but 90%+ of them should be priced, and not as moonshots. I wrote a blog post analyzing how Mike Mann does it, but clearly you think he doesn't know what he's doing either:



How kind of you to show him the way! He's only the guy that founded BuyDomains and sold it for $80 million. Then waited out his non-compete and built a massive portfolio all over again, at a time when that kind of scale is much harder to achieve. I'm sure he will learn a tremendous amount.

And then there's this gem:





Epik has 380k domains in the marketplace. Assuming a generous 2% sell-through rate, you're seeing what... 7,600 sales a year? Add in your escrow service, MLS domains that sell through you, and then rounding up, I'm guessing you're privy to at most 10k sales a year through your platform. Probably less. Amazing... nobody has access to that much sales data, other than everyone who uses NameBio.

Out of curiosity, why do you rarely check it? I would assume someone who runs a marketplace would want to have his finger on the pulse, not just stay in his own little bubble. Seems a bit shortsighted, but you do you.

We have plenty of end user sales data from Sedo, Uni, DomainMarket, other brokers, and private sellers if that's all you're interested in. None from Epik though, only the elites should have access to that data.



I'm just glad you walked back your sensational advice to something more sensible, even if it was something we all already knew... own good domains and don't sell the best ones cheap. Oh and SSL landers.

In light of your thoughtful analysis of BIN vs. Make-Offer, I should also extend an invitation.

As you may be aware, we are in the process of compiling a free course. That course is very nearly ready for release and will be made available in many languages. In the course, I did include a section on "Shoot the Moon" as an advanced strategy.

The project was described here:

https://www.namepros.com/threads/teach-a-man-to-fish-co-creating-abundance.1162792/

You can see a laid out version of the e-Book staged here:

http://demos.epik.com/review/dg/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/E-book-DomainGraduate.pdf

I think there should be a section on "Strategic BIN pricing". It seems you are the logical author, and that NameBio should be acknowledged.

If interested, would be happy to extend a free sponsorship for NameBio on the new DomainGraduate.com website and eBook.

This project all came together very rapidly in response to some great feedback in a thread that you might have missed:

https://www.namepros.com/threads/domain-microfinance-program.1154715/

Which in turn led to a brand selection of the domain eRise.org to be used in a Digital Empowerment initiative as a non-profit:

https://www.namepros.com/threads/poll-for-the-goodwill-of-domains-digital-empowerment-brand.1157478/

Let me know!

 

[Recons.Com]

Uniregistry brokerage has released their 2018 market sales.

For 5445 domains sold in 2018.
$50.100.000
Average sales price was $9.200.
Median sales price was $3.500

• 404 one-word domains. 7.42%
• 2,363 two-word domains. 43.4%
• 423 three-word domains. 7.77%
• 538 one-to-four character domains. 9.88%
• 1,799 other domains. 33%

58 sales were above $100.000. 1.065%. Average length was 5.8 characters.
1005 between $10.000 and $99.999. 18.45%. Average length of these domains was 8 characters.

Uni has a decade of data, they also uses make offer and offer leases if needed during negotiation.

If you have a portfolio of 1000 curated names with a proven model in which I am diligently acquiring and selling names like @Recons.Com does by pricing them fairly (which is the way to grow), I'd take my best (quality) 100 names including 2-words and set them to make offer. Because the other 900 are still going to sell and I'll still be acquiring names.

If you make the fatal mistake of going lethargic by trying to shoot the moon too early, you'll stop acquiring names while waiting for that sale.
So make sure you only allocate good domains to shooting the moon.
And that you have a diligent, proven business model in which you are always acquiring names and setting the vast majority of them at fair BIN.
Like domainmarket.com or buydomains.com.
And better domains at make offer.

You have to know how to grow quickly and diligently without relying on the lottery, and how to handle leads on good domains and not be scared to because you can always switch to leases.

And now you know!

Brilliant concise post!

 

[Rob Monster]

Another comment about Shooting the Moon.

As mentioned earlier, many purchases back into a lease. The prospect was calibrated to a high purchase price for a domain that would be strategic for them. Most leases will have a purchase option.

In some cases, the lease option can only be triggered when there is some subsequent financing event, e.g. an expansion, a new investor, a strategic senior hire, major sale, or being acquired.

So, when you shoot the moon and settle for a lease, I recommend paying attention to them, particularly if it is a medium sized company with prospects. Google Alerts is a fine tool for that.

Some people plant Christmas tree for a living. They wait 10 years to cut them down.

As a domainer, you can "plant" leases, and wait for the lessee's ship to come in. You helped them back into a superior brand name, and when they get ROI from that strategic re-brand, you get your pay-day.

In the meantime, you get recurring leasing income and they got a deal that they could not otherwise afford. It is a win-win, co-creating abundance which empowers someone who is not wealthy (yet).

Regardless, of whether you call it a seed in the ground, a line in the water, or a tree in the field, the net result is the same, except with a lease/option the selling process is consultative and ongoing.

Anyone can do this. If you need help closing a deal like that, just ping me and I will try to help there in a co-selling operation where the registrant is copied or bcc.

 

[winst]

https://namebio.com/blog/dont-shoot-for-the-moon/

I disagree with the post. Looking at the big data but ignore the micro data is what got many businesses in trouble in the first place. Take Apple for example, before the iPhone, survey after survey says that users wanted physical keyboards on smart phones. But guess what, users hated "small resistive touch screens" but loved "large capacitive multi-touch". All the companies that stuck with keyboards lost.

Take Michael Jordan's mansion in Chicago suburb for example, it was sitting on the market for 10 years (and still is). If you look at the comp in the area, it was priced similarly to other mansion in the area at $16 million. But nobody wanted to buy it, why? If you only look at the numbers it does not make any sense. But if you look at the map you will understand why immediately. All other mansions were all near the lake, but Michael Jordan's was build next to a busy train track. Michael Jordan was young and probably bought the biggest land he could find to build his mansion. For him, the mansion is close to the famous Berto Center (Chicago Bulls training facility) and close to highways to Chicago.

Domain names are more like real estates and less like retail products, because unlike retail products, each name is unique, you can look at the big data for general directions but don't ignore what makes each name unique and desirable.

I also find many suggestions from domain marketplaces disingenuous. Of course they wanted you to set BIN because it is all about velocity. I've sold a Chip years ago for $1645, then the buyer turned around and sold it on NameJet for $2450 in a few days. I wasn't mad, but it got me thinking: the buyer made $300 for a hour of work, but NameJet made $490 on commission, more than the domain investor. I'd rather sell to an end-user, not another investor.

 

[Rob Monster]

Of course they wanted you to set BIN because it is all about velocity.

Oops, now you've done it: you have exposed the entire economic model of the traditional lights-out marketplace using BIN pricing. Stack 'em high and sell 'em cheap.

Just go to SquadHelp's Brands for sale. Notice anything?

How told all these people that they should price at around $2K? Rhetorical question because the obvious answer is that it comes from "industry best practice" and "comps" made from Swiss cheese. Fuggedaboutit.

Leases with options and Shoot-the-moon exits depart from the model of keeping domains priced under $2K. The $2K threshold is a self-fulfilling prophecy when enough people calibrate to it. My advice: don't.

 

[Michael]

Oops, now you've done it: you have exposed the entire economic model of the traditional lights-out marketplace using BIN pricing. Stack 'em high and sell 'em cheap.

Just go to SquadHelp's Brands for sale. Notice anything?

Show attachment 136226

How told all these people that they should price at around $2K? Rhetorical question because the obvious answer is that it comes from "industry best practice" and "comps" made from Swiss cheese. Fuggedaboutit.

Leases with options and Shoot-the-moon exits depart from the model of keeping domains priced under $2K. The $2K threshold is a self-fulfilling prophecy when enough people calibrate to it. My advice: don't.

You're kidding right? Try sorting by price high to low instead of relevance. What do you know, the good names are priced high and the bad names are priced low. Weird how that works. I wonder why all the garbage names aren't priced high too... the sellers must be idiots! Why would they want to actually make $2k when they could dream about making $50k?! They are getting suckered by greedy marketplaces and incomplete data, that's why! Wow... just wow.

The domains in your screenshot are garbage and the marketplace encourages prices where they'll actually have a chance in hell of selling. Because... you know, making sales is the entire point, both for the marketplace and for the seller. If everything was Make Offer those names would be inundated with $50 offers, not $250k offers. But because they price them, and reasonably, they have a pretty decent chance of making some sales.

Imagine the buying experience if every seller on that marketplace quoted back mid five-figures on names similar to the ones in your screenshot. No deals would get done, buyers would get pissed that their time was wasted, and they'd quickly have a reputation for ineptitude of the highest order. But maybe one sale would happen each year across the entire marketplace, so there's that. It wouldn't be a bunch of people having a party on the moon like you seem to think.

It's very simple. For your weak names, price them and make it $5k or lower. For your good names price them $5k or higher. If you actually have any great names, don't price them at all.

There's a reason it is the conventional wisdom, because that's what hundreds of thousands of people have experienced over decades. Why do you think BuyDomains and HugeDomains does that with their millions of names? They're too dumb to price test? They don't want to make more money?

That you think you discovered something new is hilarious. People on the fringes have been doing your moonshots for decades, you just don't hear about them because they never made a sale. Just look at the guy in the comments of my article with the 3D Metal Printing names. Ask him how those moonshots are working out for him. Shoot-the-moon pricing also departs from the model of actually making sales.

Leases may be the future, but they aren't the present. Most buyers don't want to build on something they don't own. Those that do usually bail on the lease after a few months. The fact is most businesses fail or never even get off the starting line. When you lease you're banking on them succeeding, and you'll only make that sweet, sweet recurring revenue until they throw in the towel.

Meanwhile you might have missed out on good sales while the name was being used. And future buyers might be reluctant to build on the grave of another failed business, since there would probably be bad press, negative reviews, etc. that they have to pay to get rid of. It's not as sexy as it sounds, and very rarely results in a big exercise at the end of the term.

 

[Rob Monster]

You're kidding right? Try sorting by price high to low instead of relevance. What do you know, the good names are priced high and the bad names are priced low. Weird how that works. I wonder why all the garbage names aren't priced high too... the sellers must be idiots! Why would they want to actually make $2k when they could dream about making $50k?! They are getting suckered by greedy marketplaces and incomplete data, that's why! Wow... just wow.

The domains in your screenshot are garbage and the marketplace encourages prices where they'll actually have a chance in hell of selling. Because... you know, making sales is the entire point, both for the marketplace and for the seller. If everything was Make Offer those names would be inundated with $50 offers, not $250k offers. But because they price them, and reasonably, they have a pretty decent chance of making some sales.

Imagine the buying experience if every seller on that marketplace quoted back mid five-figures on names similar to the ones in your screenshot. No deals would get done, buyers would get pissed that their time was wasted, and they'd quickly have a reputation for ineptitude of the highest order. But maybe one sale would happen each year across the entire marketplace, so there's that. It wouldn't be a bunch of people having a party on the moon like you seem to think.

It's very simple. For your weak names, price them and make it $5k or lower. For your good names price them $5k or higher. If you actually have any great names, don't price them at all.

There's a reason it is the conventional wisdom, because that's what hundreds of thousands of people have experienced over decades. Why do you think BuyDomains and HugeDomains does that with their millions of names? They're too dumb to price test? They don't want to make more money?

That you think you discovered something new is hilarious. People on the fringes have been doing your moonshots for decades, you just don't hear about them because they never made a sale. Just look at the guy in the comments of my article with the 3D Metal Printing names. Ask him how those moonshots are working out for him. Shoot-the-moon pricing also departs from the model of actually making sales.

Leases may be the future, but they aren't the present. Most buyers don't want to build on something they don't own. Those that do usually bail on the lease after a few months. The fact is most businesses fail or never even get off the starting line. When you lease you're banking on them succeeding, and you'll only make that sweet, sweet recurring revenue until they throw in the towel.

Meanwhile you might have missed out on good sales while the name was being used. And future buyers might be reluctant to build on the grave of another failed business, since there would probably be bad press, negative reviews, etc. that they have to pay to get rid of. It's not as sexy as it sounds, and very rarely results in a big exercise at the end of the term.

Thanks Michael.

I appreciate your vast data set. I think it lacks:

- Private transactions (among the biggest!)
- Crypto transactions (also big)
- Cash transactions (yup, seen those too)
- Lease transactions (growing quickly)

You can call all of these edge cases but you don't really know because you mostly don't track them.

The good news about Swiss cheese is that in spite of the holes, it is satisfying. I would say the same about NameBio. It is a dull knife but it is appreciated.

As for conventional wisdom, I find it to be over-rated. Conventional wisdom says that all hyphen domains are trash. I have argued otherwise:

https://www.namepros.com/threads/hyphenated-com-domains-are-back-in-fashion.1154810

I routinely pick up cheap hyphen domains that are brandable are correlate to high CPC categories, set SSL landers on them and wait for the inquiries. They sell. Afternic sells them too so you can probably find them in your database, and perhaps with increasing sell-through at least in .COM.

So, you are entitled to your opinion. You are welcome to label me as contrarian, maverick, or whatever label you care to assign, benign or otherwise.

Regardless, I am a fan of NameBio. I am glad it exists. Even though Epik does not report data to it, and I don't use it very much as a pricing guide, I do use it for appraisal reports where comps are needed.

Lastly, here is where I will absolutely agree with you:

- Names that someone would happy to sell at any price can be priced at BIN.

- Names that someone is too busy or to incapable to to consultatively sell can be BIN.

- Name that are sold mainly for traffic can be sold with metrics for BIN.

As for the rest, if it is a case of beauty in the art of the beholder, then I prefer consultative selling because a capable salesperson should be able to articulate a value proposition to the prospective buyer.

I hope that clarifies.

And again, the offer still open to add a chapter on BIN price selling to the Domain Graduate 2.0 book being co-created here:

https://www.namepros.com/threads/teach-a-man-to-fish-co-creating-abundance.1162792

Your bias might be too much but if you have winning strategies for BIN pricing for people who want to make money in their sleep, even if they leave some on the table, that is useful!

 

[winst]

I must have missed something here, what's with all the hostility? I actually went to the site and most of the good names do have "Make an offer", there are some gems that I'd pay more. But to me, most are not that great.

I know a lot of people think it's just numbers game. People are happy to doing what works now. But the NameBio's stats does not match my experience. According to the the NameBio stats, I shouldn't have made any sale with only 100 names. But I did. I was able to sell 2 or 3 domain name every year for the last 15 years. Maybe I was lucky? Or maybe it was proof that I have high quality names? I find Rob's strategy and negotiation tactics appealing, so I'm giving it a try.

Perhaps people feel "moonshots" by idiots might damage the domain industry that is already having an image problem? I still get people ask me to give a domain name to them for free, "because you were not using it", so I'd say there are idiots all around. Let me soften it by saying there are many that were "less informed".

 

[Rob Monster]

I must (have) missed something here, what's with all the hostility?

If you figure that one out, let me know.

 

[Michael]

Thanks Michael.

I appreciate your vast data set. I think it lacks:

- Private transactions (among the biggest!)
- Crypto transactions (also big)
- Cash transactions (yup, seen those too)
- Lease transactions (growing quickly)

You can call all of these edge cases but you don't really know because you mostly don't track them.

The good news about Swiss cheese is that in spite of the holes, it is satisfying. I would say the same about NameBio. It is a dull knife but it is appreciated.

As for conventional wisdom, I find it to be over-rated. Conventional wisdom says that all hyphen domains are trash. I have argued otherwise:

https://www.namepros.com/threads/hyphenated-com-domains-are-back-in-fashion.1154810

I routinely pick up cheap hyphen domains that are brandable are correlate to high CPC categories, set SSL landers on them and wait for the inquiries. They sell. Afternic sells them too so you can probably find them in your database, and perhaps with increasing sell-through at least in .COM.

So, you are entitled to your opinion. You are welcome to label me as contrarian, maverick, or whatever label you care to assign, benign or otherwise.

Regardless, I am a fan of NameBio. I am glad it exists. Even though Epik does not report data to it, and I don't use it very much as a pricing guide, I do use it for appraisal reports where comps are needed.

Lastly, here is where I will absolutely agree with you:

- Names that someone would happy to sell at any price can be priced at BIN.

- Names that someone is too busy or to incapable to to consultatively sell can be BIN.

- Name that are sold mainly for traffic can be sold with metrics for BIN.

As for the rest, if it is a case of beauty in the art of the beholder, then I prefer consultative selling because a capable salesperson should be able to articulate a value proposition to the prospective buyer.

I hope that clarifies.

And again, the offer still open to add a chapter on BIN price selling to the Domain Graduate 2.0 book being co-created here:

https://www.namepros.com/threads/teach-a-man-to-fish-co-creating-abundance.1162792

Your bias might be too much but if you have winning strategies for BIN pricing for people who want to make money in their sleep, even if they leave some on the table, that is useful!

I'm not someone who blindly follows conventional wisdom, I look at the data and form my own opinions. And it just so happens that the conventional wisdom checks out here, as it often does. Now that you've walked back your advice and clarified it more, yours does as well. There's no way you could support a claim with any actual data, that the average domainer with 100 or so weak names should be asking five figures ever, much less always. So I'm glad you didn't double down on that.

I actually like hyphen domains as well, but only if the non-hyphenated version would be maybe $25k+ when priced reasonably. I see them all the time here in Europe. There's no question having a hyphen hurts the value significantly, but that doesn't mean they all have no value. Not sure anyone ever said that though. If you offered everyone here on this forum Car-Insurance.com for $2k I bet you'd have nearly 100% take it, even if they had to beg, borrow and steal to get the money.

I'll take a pass on writing for the book, I appreciate the invite though. I read it and it's a pretty good start, although a bit heavy on the parking and typos when that hasn't been a big part of the game for a decade. And the tools section only has one tool that isn't really all that popular. I sincerely hope the finished product is sound advice that I can recommend. I get a lot of questions where the answer would require teaching someone practically the entire business, so it would be great to have a resource to send people to instead. Kudos for tackling it when nobody else would in the past 20+ years.

I must have missed something here, what's with all the hostility? I actually went to the site and most of the good names do have "Make an offer", there are some gems that I'd pay more. But to me, most are not that great.

I know a lot of people think it's just numbers game. People are happy to doing what works now. But the NameBio's stats does not match my experience. According to the the NameBio stats, I shouldn't have made any sale with only 100 names. But I did. I was able to sell 2 or 3 domain name every year for the last 15 years. Maybe I was lucky? Or maybe it was proof that I have high quality names? I find Rob's strategy and negotiation tactics appealing, so I'm giving it a try.

Perhaps people feel "moonshots" by idiots might damage the domain industry that is already having an image problem? I still get people ask me to give a domain name to them for free, "because you were not using it", so I'd say there are idiots all around.

I haven't seen your portfolio, your prices, or how you negotiate. But given your join date odds are in your favor that your portfolio is significantly better than the average domainer. That's kind of how statistics work though, for every one of you there are thousands that have never made an end user sale and several thousand more who have never even gotten an inquiry, so it averages out. Your success doesn't make my advice or data any less true for the average person, just not for you maybe.

You guys are right though, I apologize for being overly aggressive. I'll tone it down. I just strongly believe that Rob is giving out bad advice telling the average Joe not to price his names and to shoot for the moon, when the average person has never had an end user sale and rarely gets inquiries. It's a bit tone deaf. And debating using conspiracy theories and backhanded compliments instead of data kind of sets me off.

I want to see this industry grow in size and see more people succeeding, and I think Rob's advice jeopardized that. Enough so that I felt compelled to write an article about it even though I only write a couple a year. Especially since he is someone that many people here revere and will follow blindly, you have to wield that kind of power very responsibly and thoughtfully.

 

[winst]

I want to see this industry grow in size and see more people succeeding, and I think Rob's advice jeopardized that. Enough so that I felt compelled to write an article about it even though I only write a couple a year. Especially since he is someone that many people here revere and will follow blindly, you have to wield that kind of power very responsibly and thoughtfully.

Rob, here is your answer.

I do think as Domain industry matures, each player needs to play to their own strength and position accordingly (marketing). In other words, if you were a restaurant, what kind of restaurant were you? (another food analogy from Winston)

Are you selling a $2 burger like McDonald's? a $6 burger like Shake Shack? If you want to sell a $2,000 burger, you better have some gimmick to justify it.

 

[Rob Monster]

I'm not someone who blindly follows conventional wisdom, I look at the data and form my own opinions. And it just so happens that the conventional wisdom checks out here, as it often does. Now that you've walked back your advice and clarified it more, yours does as well. There's no way you could support a claim with any actual data, that the average domainer with 100 or so weak names should be asking five figures ever, much less always. So I'm glad you didn't double down on that.

I actually like hyphen domains as well, but only if the non-hyphenated version would be maybe $25k+ when priced reasonably. I see them all the time here in Europe. There's no question having a hyphen hurts the value significantly, but that doesn't mean they all have no value. Not sure anyone ever said that though. If you offered everyone here on this forum Car-Insurance.com for $2k I bet you'd have nearly 100% take it, even if they had to beg, borrow and steal to get the money.

I'll take a pass on writing for the book, I appreciate the invite though. I read it and it's a pretty good start, although a bit heavy on the parking and typos when that hasn't been a big part of the game for a decade. And the tools section only has one tool that isn't really all that popular. I sincerely hope the finished product is sound advice that I can recommend. I get a lot of questions where the answer would require teaching someone practically the entire business, so it would be great to have a resource to send people to instead. Kudos for tackling it when nobody else would in the past 20+ years.


I haven't seen your portfolio, your prices, or how you negotiate. But given your join date odds are in your favor that your portfolio is significantly better than the average domainer. That's kind of how statistics work though, for every one of you there are thousands that have never made an end user sale and several thousand more who have never even gotten an inquiry, so it averages out. Your success doesn't make my advice or data any less true for the average person, just not for you maybe.

You guys are right though, I apologize for being overly aggressive. I'll tone it down. I just strongly believe that Rob is giving out bad advice telling the average Joe not to price his names and to shoot for the moon, when the average person has never had an end user sale and rarely gets inquiries. It's a bit tone deaf. And debating using conspiracy theories and backhanded compliments instead of data kind of sets me off.

I want to see this industry grow in size and see more people succeeding, and I think Rob's advice jeopardized that. Enough so that I felt compelled to write an article about it even though I only write a couple a year. Especially since he is someone that many people here revere and will follow blindly, you have to wield that kind of power very responsibly and thoughtfully.

Thanks for the response.

Quick anecdotal input:

Last night, an Epik client sold WINDOWFASHION.COM for $12,500 (wire received). He probably could have shot the moon on that one, but he sold that anyway. The seller had the choice there. We don't force people to walk from 5 figure offers. It was still a fine outcome for the seller and he is happy with his deal.

Earlier today I had a conversation with a domain broker who is doing $27 million per year in domain sales. Nearly all his sales go through general counsel at corporate buyers. When he needs escrow, he often uses Epik, but a lot of his transactions are just purchase and sale agreements, and confidential.

Like it or not, your data is a sample. That may not be comforting but it is a fact and it is going to have huge sampling bias. Did you know I ran a large market research company early in my professional life? Sold it to WPP Group for 9 figures cash. Suffice it to say, I know a bit about statistics and samplling.

The bigger issue I see is that you seem to demonstrate "normalcy bias", i.e. assuming that past predicts future. I don't believe it always does, in part because of big shifts, e.g. tremendous wealth disparity, mainstreaming of cryptos, and most recently the decisive victory of .COM over all-comers.

Your normalcy bias also prompts you to declare conspiracy theories as nonsense, and perhaps validating your overly aggressive and combative rhetoric. You are a skilled writer, and effectively present evidence. However, any skilled analyst and writer can tell a story. You have your truth. I have mine.

As for selling to people who have money, the pattern of "winner take all" is very much at work, which is one reason that guys with the really great premium .com domains have done really well. The people who can afford it, want the best. The rest have to lease, or settle for something cheap.

As for the e-Book, thanks for taking a look there. We'll see what more we can tune up there. The content is being continually refreshed over the last 2 weeks. We are hoping to ship it later this month, and get it into the hands of folks who can apply it. I agree about dialing back PPC and typo -- an outdated strategy.

In the meantime, any further consolidated reference links or resource summaries that you have come across are greatly appreciated. You have my contact info. Even a bit of guidance there is happily acknowledged through a free sponsorship for NameBio.

 

[Rob Monster]

A propos my earlier remark, consider this one from this morning:

https://blockstream.info/tx/f45824ef8420cf19f5a79e545db86595045c85ff4427aff7a9062cee165ea2d8

That is for the domain Ayre.Eu. The 2.71 BTC price tag puts it right around #25 of all time for NameBio for .EU. Most marketplaces don't clear in crypto, and most .EU transactions are not of this size. The transaction was entirely mediated on a self-serve basis through our marketplace. I share this not to boast but to provide a real-time peek that I am not joking around. Epik clients are free to share their deals but that is not going to be our practice anytime soon.

 

[Michael]

Thanks for the response.

Quick anecdotal input:

Last night, an Epik client sold WINDOWFASHION.COM for $12,500 (wire received). He probably could have shot the moon on that one, but he sold that anyway. The seller had the choice there. We don't force people to walk from 5 figure offers. It was still a fine outcome for the seller and he is happy with his deal.

Earlier today I had a conversation with a domain broker who is doing $27 million per year in domain sales. Nearly all his sales go through general counsel at corporate buyers. When he needs escrow, he often uses Epik, but a lot of his transactions are just purchase and sale agreements, and confidential.

Like it or not, your data is a sample. That may not be comforting but it is a fact and it is going to have huge sampling bias. Did you know I ran a large market research company early in my professional life? Sold it to WPP Group for 9 figures cash. Suffice it to say, I know a bit about statistics and samplling.

The bigger issue I see is that you seem to demonstrate "normalcy bias", i.e. assuming that past predicts future. I don't believe it always does, in part because of big shifts, e.g. tremendous wealth disparity, mainstreaming of cryptos, and most recently the decisive victory of .COM over all-comers.

Your normalcy bias also prompts you to declare conspiracy theories as nonsense, and perhaps validating your overly aggressive and combative rhetoric. You are a skilled writer, and effectively present evidence. However, any skilled analyst and writer can tell a story. You have your truth. I have mine.

As for selling to people who have money, the pattern of "winner take all" is very much at work, which is one reason that guys with the really great premium .com domains have done really well. The people who can afford it, want the best. The rest have to lease, or settle for something cheap.

As for the e-Book, thanks for taking a look there. We'll see what more we can tune up there. The content is being continually refreshed over the last 2 weeks. We are hoping to ship it later this month, and get it into the hands of folks who can apply it. I agree about dialing back PPC and typo -- an outdated strategy.

In the meantime, any further consolidated reference links or resource summaries that you have come across are greatly appreciated. You have my contact info. Even a bit of guidance there is happily acknowledged through a free sponsorship for NameBio.

I know we're just scratching the surface of retail data, and I'm good with that. It's the wholesale data I care about, because that actually has predictive value. Retail sales are mostly for entertainment or inspiration, and they also help as comps in email negotiations. You don't need completeness for those ends.

Which brings me to your comment on Konstantinos' blog:

As for Michael’s agenda, hard to say, but BIN pricing in marketplaces that give him data are probably more helpful to him than private marketplaces that don’t.

Nobody is entertained by low-end, bread-and-butter retail sales, and probably almost nobody is citing them in email negotiations. Those don't move the needle for us at all. If I were biased (and a bad person) I would be pushing the same agenda as you, trying to get people to make headline-worthy sales all the time instead of sales that nobody is interested in. Those are the ones that would get eyeballs to the site.

And since, as you love harping on, we're only scraping the surface of retail data, it wouldn't make any sense for me to try to influence them one way or the other. We would only catch a trickle of the shift anyway, most of it would happen behind closed doors and we wouldn't ever know about it. No, my only agenda is seeing more people succeed so the industry is bigger and stronger; that would benefit all service providers including yourself.

You on the other hand run a niche marketplace that can't compete with the likes of GoDaddy/Afternic and Sedo on BIN landers, because name recognition matters a lot for those. When Afternic changed their landers to feature the GoDaddy logo instead, their sales went up pretty significantly.

One could say that you're playing to your strengths (or at least the only place you have a shot to compete) by trying to convince everyone to not BIN price and to push offers/leases, so they flock to you. But surely they could do make offer on Afternic too, even though they can't do leases, so you need another UVP to seal the deal. I know, you could offer to negotiate on their behalf personally so that your fame can help them get higher prices. That's how the conspiracy theory would sound anyway. I don't believe it because of my crippling normalcy bias though.

As for conspiracy theories, I don't mind a good one from time to time. And I don't personally care which ones you believe in. I just don't like them being used as arguments in a debate because by definition they can't be proven. When facts don't support you play to people's emotions right?

The worst part of that approach is that you supposedly have access to this huge treasure trove of data, so you could make data-driven arguments without violating privacy. But you don't. I wonder why? Oh, right, the past doesn't predict the future. A convenient reason to ignore data and rely on arguments like "income inequality is higher than ever before, price as high as possible to take back from the rich!" or "the marketplaces and NameBio want you to sell too cheap for their own personal agendas!"

Which brings us to GMI, your market research company where you gathered and sold market data so companies could make informed decisions based on past performance. Hmm. I wasn't aware of that company or your ouster from it four years before the exit, thankfully this brought me up to speed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Monster

Thanks for the diagnosis on the normalcy bias, saved me a fortune in therapy.

 

[Ariff BD]

I will shoot for the moon & wait 10 years only for two of my domains because i know they are perfect.. one is airlines domain & other is defi domain

 

[winst]

I will shoot for the moon & wait 10 years only for two of my domains because i know they are perfect.. one is airlines domain & other is defi domain

For people who wants to shoot for the moon, I'd suggest to think deeper and ask yourself:

How many airlines are starting every year? Are they well funded/and or looking to rebrand? Look at the airline websites, are they all using similar names as yours? How much do airlines spend to acquire their domain name in the past?

If you are willing to wait 10 years. Are you willing to wait for 15? 20 years?

 

[winst]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Monster

Thanks for the diagnosis on the normalcy bias, saved me a fortune in therapy.

Ahh, that explains quite a bit. All a while I thought people just did not like Rob's hard sell style.

 

[winst]

One could say that you're playing to your strengths (or at least the only place you have a shot to compete) by trying to convince everyone to not BIN price and to push offers/leases, so they flock to you. But surely they could do make offer on Afternic too, even though they can't do leases, so you need another UVP to seal the deal. I know, you could offer to negotiate on their behalf personally so that your fame can help them get higher prices.

I don't like Afternic's BIN. I listed a 4 letter .com there for $1100, just as a test. After 4 years of no activity, not a single inquiry. Out of blue one day I've got a notification that it was sold and did a fast transfer. I was very happy but quickly realized that we were in the middle of the CHIP bubble.

The moral of the story is that I just don't feel we are quite "there" yet with domain BIN, there is no one size fits all because each name is unique. With BIN, we don't really know how much the end users are willing to pay, because the marketplaces are also filled with speculator and high-speed traders. You also have no idea if you price it too high or too low until you wait for several months or even years before you get an inquiry.

BTW, please don't call me a lier because I said that I like Chinese Food, but I did not mention that I don't eat pig brains, or I don't like ALL Chinese food.

 

[Rob Monster]

Ahh, that explains quite a bit. All a while I thought people just did not like Rob's hard sell style.

That Wikipedia article is completely trash nonsense and they know it. I called them out here. The article is camped on and can only be edited by a restricted set of editors -- other edits are rolled back. ICYMI, Wikipedia has been substantially weaponized. The articles to which they link also do not allow comments, or remove comments that don't support the manufactured consensus. It is a manufactured consensus orchestrated by a group whose identity I know and who will be exposed in the process of time. More lemons for more lemonade. If anyone takes the time to trace the rabbit hole, they will begin to fully appreciate the degree to which the mainstream media is almost increasingly a coordinated propaganda operation and worthy of being ignored. The entire impeachment process being trotted out for the American people is nothing but theater. You can find more context in this very long thread - I began commenting on page 16.

As for Wikipedia alternative, check this one out:

https://infogalactic.com/

 

[Rob Monster]

I know we're just scratching the surface of retail data, and I'm good with that. It's the wholesale data I care about, because that actually has predictive value. Retail sales are mostly for entertainment or inspiration, and they also help as comps in email negotiations. You don't need completeness for those ends.

Which brings me to your comment on Konstantinos' blog:



Nobody is entertained by low-end, bread-and-butter retail sales, and probably almost nobody is citing them in email negotiations. Those don't move the needle for us at all. If I were biased (and a bad person) I would be pushing the same agenda as you, trying to get people to make headline-worthy sales all the time instead of sales that nobody is interested in. Those are the ones that would get eyeballs to the site.

And since, as you love harping on, we're only scraping the surface of retail data, it wouldn't make any sense for me to try to influence them one way or the other. We would only catch a trickle of the shift anyway, most of it would happen behind closed doors and we wouldn't ever know about it. No, my only agenda is seeing more people succeed so the industry is bigger and stronger; that would benefit all service providers including yourself.

You on the other hand run a niche marketplace that can't compete with the likes of GoDaddy/Afternic and Sedo on BIN landers, because name recognition matters a lot for those. When Afternic changed their landers to feature the GoDaddy logo instead, their sales went up pretty significantly.

One could say that you're playing to your strengths (or at least the only place you have a shot to compete) by trying to convince everyone to not BIN price and to push offers/leases, so they flock to you. But surely they could do make offer on Afternic too, even though they can't do leases, so you need another UVP to seal the deal. I know, you could offer to negotiate on their behalf personally so that your fame can help them get higher prices. That's how the conspiracy theory would sound anyway. I don't believe it because of my crippling normalcy bias though.

As for conspiracy theories, I don't mind a good one from time to time. And I don't personally care which ones you believe in. I just don't like them being used as arguments in a debate because by definition they can't be proven. When facts don't support you play to people's emotions right?

The worst part of that approach is that you supposedly have access to this huge treasure trove of data, so you could make data-driven arguments without violating privacy. But you don't. I wonder why? Oh, right, the past doesn't predict the future. A convenient reason to ignore data and rely on arguments like "income inequality is higher than ever before, price as high as possible to take back from the rich!" or "the marketplaces and NameBio want you to sell too cheap for their own personal agendas!"

Which brings us to GMI, your market research company where you gathered and sold market data so companies could make informed decisions based on past performance. Hmm. I wasn't aware of that company or your ouster from it four years before the exit, thankfully this brought me up to speed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Monster

Thanks for the diagnosis on the normalcy bias, saved me a fortune in therapy.

Let's make this simple:

- The Epik SSL landers work remarkably well. That is why people are shifting to them. If they did not work, people would stop using them.

- Make offer pricing can be done elsewhere. However, at Epik we give you the full contact details and the IP address of your inquirer. Nearly every other marketplace completely obfuscates this information and will not even give it to you even upon request. Is that lame or what? So people try Efty, which is not free, and is also not a registrar so it becomes patchwork, especially for leasing or escrow. I believe Epik's seamlessly integrated approach is structurally superior and we are co-creating to make it better, for example here.

- Epik is doing some innovative things and gather momentum as a disruptive innovator in a market dominated by dinosaurs who have largely fired their best engineers and cannot retool fast enough. They may try to patch things up with some acquisitions but if you are not a natural innovator, it will be an experiment in merging cultures, teams and technologies. The leadership competency required to delivery "completeness of vision" and "ability to execute" does not appear overnight.

- As for the search for truth, I spent many years from 2009 searching for truth. It was a personal passion. Starting Epik in 2009 allowed me to do that. I spent much of my waking hours on it, which is perhaps one reason why Epik did not really grow all that quickly as opposed to now where we may well do more business in Q4 2019 than we did in all of 2018. I want to take this thread off topic but if you want to debate such topics, the Ask me Anything thread can be found here. ICYMI, I am very focused on Epik.

- As for GMI, I led that business as a garage startup in 1999 through 2007. We grew that business 100% per year for 7 straight years for which I was named Entrepreneur of the Year in 2005. Shortly after raising $35 million in new private equity in late 2006, I was asked to step down as CEO. I remained on the board as the largest shareholder and we did exit in 2011. I think we should have gone public but the VCs had another idea. If you wonder why I have avoided institutional PE with Epik, now you know.

All that said, I don't get your animosity. I have repeatedly acknowledged you are doing something useful. I think you would privately acknowledge the same about Epik even though your rhetoric here suggests you think otherwise. I quite frankly don't care who makes money, or who takes credit, but if you are on board to lift people up, then you are my friend and ally.