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Bidding on your own names at NameJet...?

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Once in awhile I see people bidding on their own domains at NJ. I would think it would be frowned upon.

Today's seems more obvious than normal. Or am I missing something here?

Airlinejobs.com owned by Andy Booth at Booth.com and high bidder is BQDNcom (James Booth).

3 bids down we see Boothcom as a bidder.

Same thing with MovieZone.com. Owned by Andy Booth in which he currently appears to be the high bidder.

High Bid: $2,475 USD by boothcom

They actually won their own domain airplanesforsale.com. Im guessing it didnt get as high as they wanted so needed to protect it.

Bidder Amount Date
bqdncom $2,001 7/17/2017 12:23 PM
boothcom $1,950 7/17/2017 12:23 PM
 
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The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
He was timely saved by this thread. He's not making counter bids from last 24 hours.

He's on vacation in Germany, so he might not be following.
 
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So @promo, your signature indicates that you are selling dirz.com & iyet.com . Both of those domains show Oliver Hoger in the Whois?

Can you explain?

See another one of Oliver's Cronies caught. Good job jaybuk!! These Chronies are not very smart are they.
 
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See another one of Oliver's Cronies caught. Good job jaybuk!! These Chronies are not very smart are they.

Neither are you, whoever you're. You just made your account yesterday to tell all this garbage?
 
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Let's expect a drop in new topics at NP with questions about how to sale crap names for a five-figure .... This topic explains everything in detail.

P.S We obviously live in times without moral and values, very unfortunate
 
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I think the parent company is not going to let the GM make any more comments. Don't expect much of anything in regards to details now.

True
Truth hurts, it pisses me off, I was hoping he was going to come here and provide more details, because in his last posts he mentioned that some members were giving incorrect information.
 
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Is that against the TOS here? Or like at NJ apparently, just depends who you are and how well you covered your tracks?

It never change the practice of auctions. They are simply greedy domainers.
How can you buy a decent domains in auction if you are against the owner who pump the price?

I lost my respect to these people. Who cares?
 
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This thread makes me feel that all credibility of pricing is suspect. The reason is that since this has been going on for a long time, names getting promoted back and forth on the wholesale market
Oliver has sold zero of my names. But I made a lot of money both selling to Oliver and selling his names for him. So there definitely has been some back and forth.
Dude, he has already said that he's brokering for Oliver. What's there to fuss about that?
You're way off topic here and targeting the wrong guy.

Its not off topic if you look at the entire big picture here. I think most of you can see this is a cartel. All predefine their turf and and market makers, like wallstreet. Selling back and forth to inflate the values of domains. Then such sales are recorded into Namebio, and DNJournal publishes it. Then everbody believes that these domains are of value and they make the perception into reality. New People believe all this hype and get pulled into this scam like a pyramid scheme. So they create a market of newbies to sell the 2nd rate names they cannot to end users. Its cost recovery.
 
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Its not off topic if you look at the entire big picture here. I think most of you can see this is a cartel. All predefine their turf and and market makers, like wallstreet. Selling back and forth to inflate the values of domains. Then such sales are recorded into Namebio, and DNJournal publishes it. Then everbody believes that these domains are of value and they make the perception into reality. New People believe all this hype and get pulled into this scam like a pyramid scheme. So they create a market of newbies to sell the 2nd rate names they cannot to end users. Its cost recovery.

If you would like to investigate my NJ activity you can find me under the handle "castion". But I am afraid you will be sorely disappointed with my activity there. I mostly do direct deals with my network or End User outreach. NJ is not my thing.
 
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@promo I can only speak for myself but I just don't understand why you would come on here to defend Oliver Hoger.

Namejet stated, "It did appear that the winner8888 alias may be associated with Oliver Hoger, and that account will no longer be bidding on those domains."

The topic of the thread is "Bidding on your own names at Namejet...?"

I get it that you two have done business in the past, as have lots of members on this thread. But let's stick to the topic at hand.

Mr. Hoger, what say you?
 
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LIST IT!! This is getting really interesting. Is FraudGate.com taken?
For the record ShillGate.com is no longer mine.
 
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If you would like to investigate my NJ activity you can find me under the handle "castion". But I am afraid you will be sorely disappointed with my activity there. I mostly do direct deals with my network or End User outreach. NJ is not my thing.

I am concerned in market integrity on the wholesale level- this thread really brings into question that integrity. And it, simply ruins all the data of comps and so forth. I don't really use namebio, but many others do. The post made by the Namebio guy above would not have been possible had he not collected all the data. It is a ton of work to collect it and format and present it, all of that free of charge. He/they deserve recognition for that, along with all the other free sources of information.

It seems suspect to me just like many others of all this pumping and touting of domains. I have sat back and watched these auctions, and got stung once on another platform- not sure if it was a bot, or manual fake bidder but I am not sure what happened.

Ok, if you are not part of the cartel, then you certainly can verify it exists right? You certainly are an insider and have more experience and knowledge.
 
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I have no idea why they closed it. Cover up for the good old boys club maybe. I started that thread just for the reason that is happening here. I wanted to separate the dirtbag shill bidders from the good guys.

... Or in NamePros defense -- that thread could have been reported by members. (Either part of the good old boys or just somebody who prefers to keep their activity anonymous)

Still, I think it was a mistake to close, and in light of the ongoing public and private investigation, I urge NamePros to reopen that thread so anyone willing can conduct their own namejet audits.

A directory is needed at this point for transparency purposes.
 
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@promo I can only speak for myself but I just don't understand why you would come on here to defend Oliver Hoger.

Namejet stated, "It did appear that the winner8888 alias may be associated with Oliver Hoger, and that account will no longer be bidding on those domains."

The topic of the thread is "Bidding on your own names at Namejet...?"

I get it that you two have done business in the past, as have lots of members on this thread. But let's stick to the topic at hand.

Mr. Hoger, what say you?

Well I can understand that. But if Oliver indeed did shill bid I am certainly not defending nor condoning it in any way. I hate that shit to the max.

However I must admit to having the personality trait of being fiercely loyal. This is also the reason I am certainly not unbiased.

I do think the picture painted of Oliver is decidedly one-sided and as such I wanted to post my experiences for people to have a more nuanced image of who he is. I think a lot of what I posted is truly relevant since I witnessed him take many losses on names I sold him when he resold on NJ. A lot of people here have done business with him for years and years without issue. This does not mean its OK to shill bid at all if that is what happened, but I think he does deserve for someone to mention this fact in the very least.

I knew I would catch flak for this and I am OK with that. I have a clear conscience and I do not condone unethical business behaviour in any shape or form. I just never experiences any of that from Oliver. Again, not claiming he is an angel, I dont know him THAT well. Just saying what I know, cause in my world he certainly deserves that. I am sure other people that did business with him are thinking a little of the same but are afraid of how it would be perceived if they mentioned it.
 
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Let me be the first. I call BULLSH*T. Like it if you feel the same! We're not that gullible.

Namejet is about to topple Flippa as Shill Kings Platform.

If you really want to investigate, you'd look at all the auctions they have bids on before also. What's the odds of transferring domain names on several domains and not having the Whois updated. If they used Escrow it's one criteria for a fund release.

I agree with you Larry.

They have to go back to their previous listing to investigate, NJ are lazy and avoiding this issue.
Bad habit never change, especially if they are making a lot of money. If they are guilty, this will show from their previous transactions.

When I'm bidding. I always had a feeling of I'm bidding against the bot or someone else watching the domains, from no activity to suddenly wake up when I placed my bid. I don't know, but I stop there.
 
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"I witnessed him take many losses on names I sold him when he resold on NJ"

You realize that a lot of times according to records pulled by Michael, those losses were bids from his chronies right?? So even though the final sales number shows a lost, he may not have sold the domain to a real bidder.

This whole thing has "Bid Rigging" all over it. As others have coined the term, we now have Shillgate!!


I do think the picture painted of Oliver is decidedly one-sided and as such I wanted to post my experiences for people to have a more nuanced image of who he is. I think a lot of what I posted is truly relevant since I witnessed him take many losses on names I sold him when he resold on NJ. A lot of people here have done business with him for years and years without issue. This does not mean its OK to shill bid at all if that is what happened, but I think he does deserve for someone to mention this fact in the very least.
 
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... Or in NamePros defense -- that thread could have been reported by members. (Either part of the good old boys or just somebody who prefers to keep their activity anonymous)

Still, I think it was a mistake to close, and in light of the ongoing public and private investigation, I urge NamePros to reopen that thread so anyone willing can conduct their own namejet audits.

A directory is needed at this point for transparency purposes.

I think it's more of a privacy issue. If somebody posted it publicly, that's one thing. An example would be Berkens "In my case (and this is no secret) I use the bidder ID of hiphop on all backorder services going back at least 10 years- https://www.thedomains.com/2016/05/...rder-you-can-windup-bidding-against-yourself/

That's out there. Other people have their reasons. When I first started bidding over there, I actually kept a spreadsheet for myself with people I bid against and lost. I would wait a week or so or until the whois changed to find out who they were. Just so I knew who I was bidding against. So it's something people can do on their own if they really wanted to know.
 
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Can't see it. He blocked me. I actually got to him. Put that down as part of my accomplishment as a domainer.
Accomplishment for being ignored?
 
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"I witnessed him take many losses on names I sold him when he resold on NJ"

You realize that a lot of times according to records pulled by Michael, those losses were bids from his chronies right?? So even though the final sales number shows a lost, he may not have sold the domain to a real bidder.

This whole thing has "Bid Rigging" all over it. As others have coined the term, we now have Shillgate!!

Who are you? It would really aid my perception of you if you would post under your real NP account. And please we dont need the bold type.

I must confess I did not investigate the whois changes on all the 100s of 4L.COMs where he took 20-100$ losses. But you can be sure I closely monitored the few 5 and 6 figure names he sold with a loss. After all each time he did that I lost out on a BIG commission and was a little pissed. Those are real sales, and real losses.
 
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Does anybody know why the WI.com NameJet was cancelled?

http://www.namejet.com/pages/auctions/standarddetails.aspx?auctionid=3903251
Show attachment 64660

From NameBio
Show attachment 64664

Yet when I search NameBio for wi - I can't find the sale.
Show attachment 64665

Am I missing something? Has this already been discussed? WI.com currently forwards to MediaOptions.com

There's an interesting thread with popcorn worthy comments on TheDomains HERE

To summarize, Michael Berkens wrote about the UDRP history of WI.com, and Andrew Rosner in the comments pointed out the article was a conflict of interest given Berkens was the 2nd high bidder at the time of auction. One could perceive the article as attempting ti scare of a bidding war, or a fair warning as to why one bidder may have stopped bidding.

Moving on -- in the comments, Jose, calls out Andrew's WI.com domain as belonging to Oliver H,



Andrew responds



Jose responds with WHOIS info.

Jose responds again



Andrew Responds


Jose apologizes


Oliver then responds with WHOIS info:


Then a bunch of blah blah troll bickering (funny but not relevant to scope)

This comment subsection ends with Jose apologizing for dragging Olive into the discussion.

Now, it's 4 AM here, and I have yet to digest all of this. It appears the comment conversation missed one key point. In both Andrew's WI.com WHOIS and Olivers example EIQ.com WHOIS, the address is the same,

Show attachment 64662

Show attachment 64663


This may be nothing. This may be something. At this hour I have no idea. I just enjoyed reading the comments. You make your own analysis.

Is there anything here or much ado about nothing? Any significance to this address? thanks.
 
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Is there anything here or much ado about nothing? Any significance to this address? thanks.

I have no idea. I don't think you can brush it off as old leftover WHOIS data though, given the change to that identical address was recent...

upload_2017-7-20_15-54-10.png



upload_2017-7-20_15-54-36.png



upload_2017-7-20_15-55-50.png


upload_2017-7-20_15-57-27.png



upload_2017-7-20_15-58-5.png



upload_2017-7-20_15-58-37.png


Per Olivers comment, a correct WHOIS of his public domains reflect the same address (but different registrant name)

upload_2017-7-20_16-1-20.png


To be fair - I don't think I tagged @MediaOptions to give them a chance to comment in the initial post questioning the address being identical. This could be fake news. This may show a deeper connection between the two. IDK - which is why the need for clarification is neccessary. Don't blame the reporter for sharing publicly available information type deal.
 
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I was really curious what the damage appears to be so far, so I wrote a script to analyze around 1.55 million bids and generate recommended refunds. I realize this is very premature because NameJet hasn't even confirmed or denied that these accounts participated in shill bidding or determined how to move forward, but I've heard people throwing out some wild guesses like tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars lost and I really doubted that to be the case. In the interest of transparency I want to discuss my method a bit, although several people have told me this approach is still too kind to NJ.

What I did was I looked for public auctions with reserve met, where one of the suspicious aliases was the runner up. Then I looked for the next legitimate bid that wasn't the winner or the suspicious aliases being looked at. That third-party bid was used as the baseline. If the next bid was made by the winner, that became the amount the auction should have closed at. If the next bid was a suspicious alias, I used one bid increment (based on the price level) above the third-party bid to be the new closing price.

This solution isn't perfect because it still works with the "new" price even if that wouldn't have met reserve. In my view the correct way to handle this scenario is to let the winner have it at the calculated price, even if that was below the reserve. I don't think a shill bidder should have rights to enforce a reserve after the deed. The only other options I can think of would be to treat the reserve as the "new" price, or to offer a full refund and the winner returns the domain which might have been sold on already.

Some people feel this method is still too generous and that all of the shill bids should be removed, because it only credits winners when the runner-up was a shill. Take, for example, a situation where the shiller went back and forth with someone, the legitimate bidder led, and then a third party jumped in to win. My method would say that no refund is due at all, even though the auction may have ended much lower without the shill.

But I stand by this method because trying to figure out where this scenario would have ended is messy at best, and is likely impossible. No way to know where in the bidding one of the two real bidders would have given up, and the only reasonable case you can actually make is that it would have ended in the same place (but that ignores the "social proof" of the shill).

Anyway, let me give you the output from a single auction to make it more clear:

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filet.com closed on 2017-07-10 at $9800
Refund of $2200 is recommended for juggernaut. ($9800 - $7600)
http://www.namejet.com/Pages/Auctions/StandardDetails.aspx?auctionid=3951668

Reasoning:
juggernaut bid $9800 at 2017-07-10 16:16:00
hkdn bid $9700 at 2017-07-10 16:16:00
hkdn bid $9564 at 2017-07-10 16:11:00
juggernaut bid $9464 at 2017-07-10 16:11:00
hkdn bid $8989 at 2017-07-10 16:10:00
juggernaut bid $8889 at 2017-07-10 16:10:00
hkdn bid $8588 at 2017-07-10 16:05:00
juggernaut bid $8488 at 2017-07-10 16:05:00
hkdn bid $8388 at 2017-07-10 16:05:00
juggernaut bid $8288 at 2017-07-10 16:05:00
hkdn bid $8164 at 2017-07-10 16:00:00
juggernaut bid $8064 at 2017-07-10 16:00:00
hkdn bid $7878 at 2017-07-10 15:55:00
juggernaut bid $7778 at 2017-07-10 15:55:00
hkdn bid $7600 at 2017-07-10 15:43:00 <= Winner would have bid this with no shill.
neally bid $7500 at 2017-07-10 15:43:00 <= Last legitimate third-party bid.
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This is a prime example of the reserve issue. The only way hkdn could have bid twice at the end was if the reserve was not met yet, so that means the reserve was likely somewhere between $9,700 and $9,799 and the "new" price would be way below the reserve. But I still think the recommendation is good.

Here are the results broken down by suspicious alias, across all five seller accounts:

SEEK: $3,582 in recommended refunds across 16 auctions.
WINNER8888: $19,171 in recommended refunds across 40 auctions.

I'm running this separately because I'm still not sure hkdn is a shill, although all evidence points to it and nothing that I can find points to it being a legitimate bidder with a real identity. But anyway:

HKDN: $839,346 in recommended refunds across 2243 auctions.

The number of auctions affected don't exactly match up to the number of times each alias was a runner up that I mentioned before. The reason is that, let's say HKDN was the runner up but seek was the winner, in that case it wouldn't recommend a refund or be considered an affected auction. Plus I also gathered a little more data.

So that's either $22,753 in refunds if hkdn is legitimate, or $862,099 in refunds if the alias is a shill, using a method that may be generous to NameJet. The first two aliases seem to mostly push the reserve and then walk away, or place a few early bids, maybe to move it up when people sort by bid/price. So while the calculated refunds aren't astronomical if HKDN is real, it is still a big deal because these two aliases still unduly influenced more than 1,250 auctions in some way or another even if it wasn't a run-up at the end. If HKDN is a shill it's a really, really big problem.

Obviously NameJet may find no fault, or they may find fault but not give refunds, or choose a different method for calculating refunds. This report is completely unofficial, may be incomplete, and I have no involvement in this decision so don't take it too seriously. Just wanted to get people's heads out of the stratosphere.

I also looked into "russell" that several people mentioned. I really, really hope you guys are wrong about that because that account has been active since at least 2008, has been involved in nearly 25k auctions (6.7k of which were Oliver's), and placed more than $2 million in back orders and bids. I'll look into this more when I have time and more WHOIS history queries.

If anyone wants the output for their particular alias just shoot me an email to [email protected] (replace xx).






I'm waiting to see the disgruntled (potential) shillers come forward to show what compensation payment arrangements were used as incentives (if any)
 
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