Bidding on your own names at NameJet...?

[webquest]

Once in awhile I see people bidding on their own domains at NJ. I would think it would be frowned upon.

Today's seems more obvious than normal. Or am I missing something here?

Airlinejobs.com owned by Andy Booth at Booth.com and high bidder is BQDNcom (James Booth).

3 bids down we see Boothcom as a bidder.

Same thing with MovieZone.com. Owned by Andy Booth in which he currently appears to be the high bidder.

High Bid: $2,475 USD by boothcom

They actually won their own domain airplanesforsale.com. Im guessing it didnt get as high as they wanted so needed to protect it.

Bidder Amount Date
bqdncom $2,001 7/17/2017 12:23 PM
boothcom $1,950 7/17/2017 12:23 PM

 

[Name Trader]

It's not technically a shill:
"Let’s look first at the word, “shill.” Shill means basically to falsely advocate a position in attempts to entice others do follow that lead. For example, Robert opens a music store in Seattle, Washington and Robert enlists his friends and family to blog about how wonderful the service is at this new music store — even though none have even set foot in Robert’s new store."

Therefore, if you are fully aware the owner is sitting next to you bidding on his own stuff, then that's not really a shill because he's not falsely advocating anything. It's out in the open.

Therefore it's a shill bid if you are not aware of who the owner is?

 

[Chris Hydrick]

Links to Booth domains being brokered by another NJ seller...

WrestlingWorld.com
http://www.namejet.com/Pages/Auctions/StandardDetails.aspx?auctionid=3956036&cat=

MovieZone.com
http://www.namejet.com/pages/auctions/standarddetails.aspx?auctionid=3955604

MeatLoadRecipe.com
http://www.namejet.com/Pages/Auctions/StandardDetails.aspx?auctionid=3955617&cat=

LACollege.com
http://www.namejet.com/Pages/Auctions/StandardDetails.aspx?auctionid=3955636&cat=

AirlineJobs.com
http://www.namejet.com/Pages/Auctions/StandardDetails.aspx?auctionid=3955790&cat=

Again and for the last time, I am NOT supporting shill bidding. I'm supporting the IDEA of openly allowing owners to participate in auctions which have NO RESERVE. Everyone has a fair and equal shot at buying the asset. Where is the flaw?

This is like asking @MediaOptions to broker a no reserve auction (list as no reserve to get more interested) then if the seller doesn't like the results, the seller bids on MediaOptions auction. The seller pays NameJet, NameJet pays MediaOptions, then MediaOptions pays the seller.

It's sickening to know how often this behavior happens. Ever wonder why certain brokers consistently get more at auction? Shill bidding. Disguised in a multitude of ways.

 

[Beezy]

House of cards is about to crumble.

 

[mr-x]

This is like asking @MediaOptions to broker a no reserve auction (list as no reserve to get more interested) then if the seller doesn't like the results, the seller bids on MediaOptions auction. The seller pays NameJet, NameJet pays MediaOptions, then MediaOptions pays the seller.

It's sickening to know how often this behavior happens. Ever wonder why certain brokers consistently get more at auction? Shill bidding. Disguised in a multitude of ways.

Also against the law. If proven, some of these domains could be awarded to the last good faith bidder. Regardless of @NameJetGM rules.

 

[Chris Hydrick]

Also against the law. If proven, some of these domains could be awarded to the last good faith bidder. Regardless of @NameJetGM rules.

There appears to be sufficient proof. (wish I could say more )

 

[offthehandle]

https://mikebrandlyauctioneer.wordpress.com/2010/11/25/what-is-shill-bidding/

For honest auction participants — both buyers and sellers — shill bidding damages the auction process by instilling distrust in the practice. Buyers may avoid auctions where they believe shill bidding is tolerated. Sellers may find lower prices where their items are sold at auctions which potential bidders are avoiding.

Too, auction buyers pay artificially inflated prices by either basing their bids on shill bidders, and/or being pushed by shill bidders to pay more.

For the shill bidder, the consequences can range from being barred from participating in auctions, to civil and and even criminal charges; fines alone to-date have been as high as $400,000 for shill bidding. Most every case of shill bidding resulting in civil charges has involved some type of online auction, where the identity of the bidders is more easily concealed.

Shill bidding is a crime and auctioneers need to do everything they can to help eliminate it from the auction industry.

https://mikebrandlyauctioneer.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/can-the-seller-bid-at-auction/

What does state law say about the seller bidding? First, almost all state law says that if the seller may only bid at a “with reserve” type auction. Secondly, that if the seller wants to reserve the right to bid, that such must be disclosed to the other bidders. Third, that if the seller bids without such disclosure, that the high bidder on property on which the seller bid can take the property at the last good faith bid prior to the seller bidding.

However, there is a consistent exception to all of this, which state law and the courts have upheld. At a forced sale, no matter the type of auction, the seller may bid without any disclosure. Such auctions are often court-ordered events, such as foreclosures, repossessions and the like. We discussed this in more detail in our article about Auctions and Forced Sales.

Auction bidders detest the seller (the owner) bidding on property in which they (the bidders) are interested. Few things deter bidders from an auction to any larger degree than sellers bidding, or otherwise protecting their property from bidders.

Here are more quotes from laws.

http://www.stimmel-law.com/en/articles/law-auctions

 

[RWD]

NJ

The ball is in your court...

Please do the right thing here.

 

[xn--v4h.com]

Therefore it's a shill bid if you are not aware of who the owner is?

Yes shills are based on deception. If the allegations are true on this thread then it's a shill . But Andrew was presenting a somewhat related theory at the worst possible time imo.

 

[Keith DeBoer]

@MediaOptions I think you're proposing an auction set up that could resolve the dysfunctional time wasting system we currently have with reserve auctions where the reserve amount is often undisclosed. The hidden reserve often curtails bidding and participation in the auction. It's a round about way for the owner to bid up the auction to a pre-determined level or take the domain back after domainers have spent time watching and making good faith bids.

I assume in your suggested system that the owner of the domain is clearly and obviously identified as the domain owner at all steps of the auction process. In this scenario, bidders are free to walk away and allow the owner to repurchase his/her domain and pay the commission if the owner feels they are not getting a good enough market value for their domain. This would be a replacement for the reserve system. Yes?

My take is that you do NOT support any system whereby the domain owner -- or his/her representative -- is allowed to make bids in a non-transparent fashion.

Your proposal is a bit hard for many of us to swallow because of the emotional charge associated with shill bidding. But if that danger was removed then I think it would become a lot more palatable to a lot of people.

Peace.

 

[xn--v4h.com]

Hi Andrew, I understand your theory that allowing the owner to bid on a no reserve auction creates the most perfectly priced market. It's clear you have given this a lot of thought.
What is against your model is that in an auction environment a major piece of information that bidders use to assess the value of an asset is 'DO OTHERS THINK THE SAME'.
It helps to validate or give confidence for them to bid higher. Now if the other bidder is the owner most would feel they are being duped, because owners often over value their own assets and therefore winning against the owner means you have more chance of falling prey to the winner's curse i.e. paying over market value because of incomplete information.
There is no doubt, owners bidding incognito achieves the highest auction prices. Does that truly mean perfectly priced market? No, and here is why: you sacrifice the good will of the auction platform once it becomes clear the auction house is allowing owners to bid and therefore long term, bidders lose confidence and stop bidding in fear they are bidding against the owner. Initially, prices fetched will be higher but as soon as the full information is known to other bidders they will be more circumspect in fear of the winners curse and loss of trust in the auction house.

Well explained

 

[Internet.Domains]

Judge: Guilty! Do you have anything to say before you go to jail for fraud!?

Criminal: What was wrong with what I did?...Nobody got hurt and it helped the free market...It was capitalism......It was a good thing.

Judge: Lock him up!!...Get him the hell out of here, these people are nuts!!!

 

[alcy]

how about refunds for everyone that was overpaying
from day 1. for all impacted domains.

 

[zurc.net]

How far back does auction history go on NameJet? I'm curious.

 

[Beezy]

Is there a class action lawyer on the board?

 

[hookbox]

I love it. @Rick Schwartz is putting this on blast

https://twitter.com/domainking?lang=en

 

[Recons.Com]

Let's assume I have a very valuable name that I bought for $10,000

Now I can set a reserve of $10,000+NJ commission and risk that their won't be enough activity, visibility, hype etc.

Or I can go @MediaOptions advocated way and set it as "no reserve", but bid myself up to certain level.

Now, many bidders might not investigate who owns the name and who the bidder aliases are.

They bid up to $5K, I bid a bit higher, end up paying $1K to NJ, but that is still less than what I would lose compared to my perceived value (which is $10K, obviously), so losing $1K is better than losing $5K.

Even at $10K bid, I might still prefer to buy it back and pay $2K to NJ as my loss.

And I still might believe it is a good business for me, if there is a 20% chance that I will get enough hype and action to get it to $25K, for example, as 20% of 15K delta is more than 1-2K loss.

Now it is bad for bidders for this reason:

- they might not suspect they are bidding against the owner or his liaison, as that would mean an effective reserve and bidder might not be interested in those

- they waste lots of time participating in the auction that they did not know had a reserve and also they tie up their resources to it.

No reserve is no reserve and let it stay that way.

Booth brothers should present the evidence of sale to us too, not just NJ or NJ should vouch for them and confirm that they have seen and verified proof of ARM'S LENGTH sale to unrelated party.

 

[Al Cohol]

Better than any Hollywood drama this here domain "industry".

 

[spankdemon]

He's calling it a no reserve auction.....But it's like a ghost reserve. It can appear and reappear / increase at any moment!

What if you were allowed to suddenly add a reserve price in the middle of an auction? Or increase the reserve price during an auction once it had already been passed? Yeah, that really makes sense.. That's essentially what he wants, even though he claims reserve prices muck up the free market!
Bidder 3 has the lead at $500! Oh wait, seller just bid $800..darn. Why didn't he just set an $800 reserve, that mofo...Oh look, Bidder 3 has bid $900. Seller bids $1000. Wtf is going on here? Okay, seller wins at $1000.
Seller: "Well, I don't want to sell it that cheaply, do I?..but I also didn't want to inform anyone of my reserve beforehand, because I wasn't sure of the value myself. But now I see it does have some value above what I thought..
Just figured I'd waste everyone's time since I'm entitled to it by my economic theory "
Or maybe "My hot potato shill bidding tactics failed this time around, darn it!"

Reserve prices on NameJet are not visible, but there is at least a range. So you're not going in blindly, wasting time on an auction that might have an insane reserve.
But of course, it would be much better to allow the seller to set a new "visible reserve" at any moment, just above your previous bid.

Decide how much you are willing to sell for, and that's that! Not these bullshit games.

 

[xn--v4h.com]

In early 2016 when I was bidding for 6N Chips at NJ, I was puzzled at @MediaOptions bidding on his own names. Now I know why he did because system allowed it. Sorry to say @NameJetGM , its very unethical.

Can you provide proof of this?

 

[xn--v4h.com]

https://mikebrandlyauctioneer.wordpress.com/2010/11/25/what-is-shill-bidding/

For honest auction participants — both buyers and sellers — shill bidding damages the auction process by instilling distrust in the practice. Buyers may avoid auctions where they believe shill bidding is tolerated. Sellers may find lower prices where their items are sold at auctions which potential bidders are avoiding.

Too, auction buyers pay artificially inflated prices by either basing their bids on shill bidders, and/or being pushed by shill bidders to pay more.

For the shill bidder, the consequences can range from being barred from participating in auctions, to civil and and even criminal charges; fines alone to-date have been as high as $400,000 for shill bidding. Most every case of shill bidding resulting in civil charges has involved some type of online auction, where the identity of the bidders is more easily concealed.

Shill bidding is a crime and auctioneers need to do everything they can to help eliminate it from the auction industry.

https://mikebrandlyauctioneer.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/can-the-seller-bid-at-auction/

What does state law say about the seller bidding? First, almost all state law says that if the seller may only bid at a “with reserve” type auction. Secondly, that if the seller wants to reserve the right to bid, that such must be disclosed to the other bidders. Third, that if the seller bids without such disclosure, that the high bidder on property on which the seller bid can take the property at the last good faith bid prior to the seller bidding.

However, there is a consistent exception to all of this, which state law and the courts have upheld. At a forced sale, no matter the type of auction, the seller may bid without any disclosure. Such auctions are often court-ordered events, such as foreclosures, repossessions and the like. We discussed this in more detail in our article about Auctions and Forced Sales.

Auction bidders detest the seller (the owner) bidding on property in which they (the bidders) are interested. Few things deter bidders from an auction to any larger degree than sellers bidding, or otherwise protecting their property from bidders.

Here are more quotes from laws.

http://www.stimmel-law.com/en/articles/law-auctions

This makes so much sense now. THANK YOU.

 

[SpareDomains]

I'd say...

You want a reserve price then add one
You don't want a reserve price then don't add one

But stay out of your own auctions as that's the point of a reserve so you don't undersell something. Point of no reserve is to let them fly, not continually bump to create reserves on your own inventory which does nothing but create a false demand to the other bidders which may make them jump higher than they originally budgeted based on the imaginary fraudulent demand they are seeing.

 

[zurc.net]

Isn't there a DN Jail?

 

[xn--v4h.com]

Gather around boys and girls. I want to tell you a story. My last sale was arabica.org. It went to auction with NO reserve. The last bidder won it after 24 hours with a bid of only $55. $55! Let's just say I bought it for MUCH more than that. If I believed that bidding on my domain was OK to do, then I could have bid it up to $100 and likely got it back no problem. BUT I did not. And of course I still wouldn't do it now or in the future. I took the risk in the hopes of the reward of more bidders. That's business. I'm not going to sacrifice the integrity of how I conduct my business, period!

 

[ksusha64]

I love it. @Rick Schwartz is putting this on blast

https://twitter.com/domainking?lang=en

That's why Rick Schwartz is best domainer of all time!!!

 

[xn--v4h.com]

Isn't there a DN Jail?

Yes there is. You get to register .horse all day long.