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Old 06-17-2011, 07:26 AM THREAD STARTER               #1 (permalink)
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Crazy first expired experience. thoughts?????


I picked up my first expired a week ago. I got a call from a guy who said he's from a company by the same name. He sounded kinda panicky and told me a story about the former web developer/manager who moved and is responsible for letting it expire. He asked me if we could work something out to get it back. Come to find out this guy works for the new web management co and the company was calling him asking why their website was dark. That would explain the panic in his voice. So I told him to have the company make me an offer for it. He kind of sounded surprised and said something like oh I don't think they'll pay anything for that. I don't know if he expected me to just give it back to them. I mean I'm not being unethical here am I? He did turn around and say he has a meeting with the heads of this company on monday and would discuss it with them. Any thoughts from any experienced memebers? Thanks in advance.
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Old 06-17-2011, 07:35 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Well, for starters, you can read what happened to this guy:

techcrunch.com/2008/12/11/fast-fingered-domain-squatters-flip-bush-library-url-for-35k

Good luck.
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Old 06-17-2011, 07:48 AM   #3 (permalink)
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You picked it up on the open market, its yours.
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Old 06-17-2011, 08:25 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Meongtae View Post
You picked it up on the open market, its yours.
it depends what kind of a name that is.

---

@OP: probably the web company/hosting co. (the guy!) is responsible and he has to get back the name from you, otherwise he is in trouble with the company. sounds to me that the company itself doesn't have to pay anything.

also be sure that there is no trademark and such issues with this DN.

if the story is convincing, i personally would give them the name back, and they should cover your expenses (all you paid + maybe a little more for your time)


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Old 06-17-2011, 09:00 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Nothing unethical I see, except for picking up expired domains for gathering money from their previous owners to be found unethical by itself.

But thert is the other thing - just wait until they make an offer, and they will make it.
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Old 06-17-2011, 09:28 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Don't worry you aren't doing anything unethical. Personally i wouldn't ask for much though. Just let them make an offer & let it go. People do make mistakes sometimes.
Though its weird they realized after over 45 days their website is gone. Might look into this.
Maybe this guy is making up a story. Try google cache or way back machine to verify if there was actually a site even present before.
Something very similar nearly happened to me, but i caught my name back just 15min back when it dropped, lol.
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Old 06-17-2011, 09:37 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by gsusreigns View Post
I picked up my first expired a week ago. I got a call from a guy who said he's from a company by the same name.
...
I mean I'm not being unethical here am I?
Did it cost $39 from GoDaddy and do they own the equivalent .net/.co.uk?

If it's a trademark or recognizable company name.

It's illegal
It's unethical

If it's NOT a trademark or recognizable company name.

It's NOT illegal
It's gray area unethical depending on your reason for registering.

To the General Public - it would be HIGHLY unethical. But that's because the whole domain business is somewhat unethical to them. I don't care if people think the motive is jealousy or what not.

I'd give it back at LITTLE profit. You deserve time take to reg/search etc. Better to make a few $ and get good karma than make $$ and have people hate you. If they offer a service you like (webhosting, branding/marketing help etc) - you could ask for that in trade.

VERIFY they are the original owner though. You don't want to give it to someone who should not have it.

---------- Post added at 12:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 PM ----------

Originally Posted by glaxxon View Post
Though its weird they realized after over 45 days their website is gone. Might look into this.
Could be that they own the .co.uk and the .com

Most of their traffic goes to the .co.uk so they don't notice the "Defensive" .com registration. I saw a company that did this a week or so ago and I emailed them to let them know. Their co.uk site actually sent to the .com email.

I got an autoresponse from their private / personal email that they were in the process of physically moving.

There's a good reason sometimes. I do think you're right though that you should definitely verify the authenticity of the contact.



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Old 06-17-2011, 09:56 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Setting good karma aside for a moment, i would probably scan the average selling price in the aftermarket right now.

Is it about $4,000 to $5,000?
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Old 06-17-2011, 10:03 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by alien51 View Post
Setting good karma aside for a moment, i would probably scan the average selling price in the aftermarket right now.

Is it about $4,000 to $5,000?
No idea - at expiry it's anything from $0-$XX,XXX. If OP picked it up at $XX then the value is primarily to the PRIOR registrant... asking $XX,XXX is more unethical than if it was picked up as part of 100 bids for $X,XXX then it has intrinsic value not related to the prior registration.

I should add that if 'domaining' is your sole source of income then you can be less interested in karma. Every situation is different....

You balance out your online image, your reputation, potential other rewards with the value of what some consider a bad faith sale.

As the company name = domain name it could be considered cybersquatting - even if the name dropped (especially if they still own other TLDs) depending on what it is - hard to judge.

I would have no issue with someone selling it back for $x,xxx if this was their business - selling domains. Personally, I wouldn't. It's like finding a wallet and expecting a reward Now if I put in 10 hrs looking for it and finding it - then @ $100/hr you can ask $1K with NO hard feelings at all.

It's mostly up to the OP.



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Old 06-17-2011, 10:05 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I'm going thru same thing as OP....

-I regged name that apparently expired on a guy that used it as an online portfolio

-I began building site and spent a bit on a script

-He emails wanting name back, I say not for sale, he offers reg fee, I say no way, I spent alot more on site design (currently in the works)

-Now He advice me that "I may need an attorney for "trademark infringement"...

-Now the games begin...

I just don't understand how site and name are so important to you ...yet you don't realize it has been down for at-least a few months??

***Hope it works out for the OP of this thread
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Old 06-17-2011, 10:10 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by AcidzTrip View Post
I'm going thru same thing as OP....

-I regged name that apparently expired on a guy that used it as an online portfolio

-I began building site and spent a bit on a script

-He emails wanting name back, I say not for sale, he offers reg fee, I say no way, I spent alot more on site design (currently in the works)

-Now He advice me that "I may need an attorney for "trademark infringement"...

-Now the games begin...

I just don't understand how site and name are so important to you ...yet you don't realize it has been down for at-least a few months??

***Hope it works out for the OP of this thread
I gave an example above. It's unusual not to notice but it can happen.

It could also be where the main site holder doesn't do the "work". A Lawyer may hire a webhosting firm to manage his site - maybe that firm goes broke? Disappears? The Lawyer is working cases all over the country and still getting referrals by mouth, by phone and the website is there but not integral to his marketing to source of revenue... could easily happen.

I recently contacted a store thinking they were out of business because their site was down. THey said they were "re-doing" it! The dev company they had didn't even put up a parked "coming soon" page or phone number - they just TOOK IT DOWN!... Strange things go on

Number of reasons.

The results depend on the original use, the new use and intend and a million other factors.

You seem to have bought a name for legitimate bona fide use - which sucks.

Each case is different. I wish you luck, also.



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Old 06-17-2011, 11:29 AM   #12 (permalink)
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it all depends on the domain
if you bought it for linkjuice you can ask for a repemption fee or whaetever fee to compensate your time
if you bought it for resale - that's a different story
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Old 06-17-2011, 11:48 AM   #13 (permalink)
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If I paid $8 for reg fee, I'd probably give them 3 days to buy it back for $25. After 73 hours I'd tell them they lose that privileged price and would have to pay the same price any other buyer would need to. Whether that was $50 or $500. I'd add a caveat that the special price is there because I understand their situation and want to help and I'm also not having to do all of the work I usually put into a domain sale...which means that further arguing or haggling on price will likely force me to raise the price to cover the label of rejecting their lower offers.

Of course if it were a trademarked name like Disney.com I'd tell them to just cover the reg cost to avoid having to battle me in ICANN for the domain.
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Old 06-17-2011, 12:21 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Though things could very much be as he stated in his email, it sounds more likely to be some average person, designer or even domainer who simply forgot to renew his domain name. That aside, definitely ensure there are no trademarks owned. If there are, turn the name over to him straight away, as it does not belong to you, regardless of how you acquired it. However, if there are no Trademarks then research the company, as well as the individual who contacted you, to ensure they are in fact real and legit. People forget to renew their domain names all the time and resort to sob-stories, meetings with company heads, even legal threats, etc; all in an effort to get the name back. If there are no Trademarks, you should be legally sound. You need only decide where you reside on a moral standpoint. Put yourself in his shoes as if you had lost a prized name. What amount would you expect to pay to get it back? Moreover, what would you expect the new owner to do in a reversed situation?

Maintaining a level of mutual respect, tact and business etiquette, the two of you should easily be able to reach an amicable resolve so both parties walk away happy and with your integrity intact. Looking forward to the outcome, should you decide to keep this thread updated. Wishing you the very best.


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Old 06-17-2011, 04:32 PM   #15 (permalink)
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It's not unethical at all. If they didn't want the name to expire, they should've kept on top of making sure it was renewed. They will definitely pay for the name if they really want it back.
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Old 06-17-2011, 04:59 PM   #16 (permalink)
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It sucks to be the guy on the losing end of a domain. As the new rightful owner of this forsaken treasure, try not to get dollar signs in your eyes as you see this fellow's misfortunes unwrap in front of you. I say this not to sound like a fortune cookie, but because I've been there (both sides) and have seen that nearly any domain name can be replaced.

It's not worth spending a month negotiating for a name that you might be able to buy back (at a small fortune sometimes), when you could be repairing the damage and building back with a new domain.

Be fair & grounded... settle for what the domain is worth to you. I wish you good luck with your negotiations!

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Old 06-17-2011, 06:29 PM   #17 (permalink)
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There are many companies who use generic keywords as the name of the company itself. So there are cases when it is not readily obvious that the domain name is "trademark".

Evenif the generic keyword was trademark, the fact that it was dropped, should mean the owner has lost interest (and therefore, claim of ownership) in the domain. I'm not a lawyer.

Generic keywords have financial value as far as internet commerce is concerned (not just domaining). So if we will be talking purely "ethical business" here, you dropped it, it's gone. I'm not sure why agreeing for a lowball should be treated as more ethical. Corporations lose millions due to errors they make, and here you are asking for 50 bucks.

So again, it probably depends on whether the domain name has commercial value outside the domain trading circles. And whether you believe you can generate the same kind of income from that domain as your asking price.

You can also check this reference case below:
http://www.dnattorney.com/craftwork.shtml

If the domain is pretty much useless other than a few pennies from parking (like craftwork above), i'm not sure why you would even pick it up from the dropped pool in the first place. I think the domain above has been parked for more than 12 years now. If you're just an average guy (not a big domain broker), then selling it to the buyer for some reasonable dollars is probably much better than just parking it on sedo for 12 years.
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Old 06-17-2011, 06:38 PM   #18 (permalink)
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You said the domain matches the company's name, so I'll assume that it isn't a generic domain. The keywords likely have a registered or unregistered trademark.
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Old 06-17-2011, 06:41 PM   #19 (permalink)
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In the example above, craftwork is a generic name, and a company name at the same time.
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Old 06-17-2011, 08:40 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by alien51 View Post
Evenif the generic keyword was trademark, the fact that it was dropped, should mean the owner has lost interest (and therefore, claim of ownership) in the domain. I'm not a lawyer.
A Trademark is a Trademark - that doesn't change.

A UDRP Panel would still look at the three requirements - the fact that it was dropped means nothing. If it was offered back at an inflated price, I think it would have the opposite effect.

Pepsi just dropped pepsi.us pepsico.us. Pretty sure they could get them back if they wanted. A generic keyword would be different - but no more different than a usual case involving the keyword. The respondent would need a legitimate reason to register the name. It could be immediately argued that it was caught on the drop due to traffic/recognition because of the TM. I think it would be hard to claim value unless 10s of bidders and high $$$.

Each case is different but I don't think dropping the name has any impact regarding the rights of registration.



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Old 06-17-2011, 09:03 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I thought a UDRP Panel would look at the TM owner in the eye and ask him what he did to protect the interest in his TM by allowing the domain to drop? Am I right/wrong about that?


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Old 06-18-2011, 06:35 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by stub View Post
I thought a UDRP Panel would look at the TM owner in the eye and ask him what he did to protect the interest in his TM by allowing the domain to drop? Am I right/wrong about that?
I'm sure they would be asked, yes. And if they said "accident"? They went to re-register and it was taken by a squatter? I don't think it has any impact on the decision - the criteria is still the same criteria. The UDRP is not there to determine anything other than the applicability of the three rules.

A Trademark is a Trademark. There's no filing requirement that says you even need to own or operate a website.

I don't think the case in this thread fits into any of these parameters, anyway.



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Old 06-18-2011, 07:14 AM   #23 (permalink)
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no name "automatically" belongs to anyone. You can have anything apple or whatever you like, as long as you dont cause damage to the name, cause them a loss in revenue, ...dang...i guess i am going off the thread...
I have been through a few cease and desist orders and lawsuits, and all I can say is that they are expensive, and you better do your research.
As I said before, in this case, I would have given it back, and moved on.
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Old 06-21-2011, 09:47 AM THREAD STARTER               #24 (permalink)
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Thanks for the feedback everyone. The name I have is not trademarked fwiw. I am waiting to hear back to see if they will make me an offer. This organization does not exist on any google searches that I've done. Thanks to the help of another member I found them on facebook. They look to me like a small organization so I'm not expecting much. The name was dropped a year ago and I just picked it up, so apparently they haven't been keeping an eye on their own site. To have it be on the open market for a year seems like it's more than fair game in my opinion. They did own the site for close to a decade before that, though, so if they want it I'll sell it to them at a modest price. I'm not looking for anything above the $xxx range. Seems fair to me.
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Old 06-22-2011, 02:21 PM THREAD STARTER               #25 (permalink)
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Just to wrap this thread up... I ended up selling it back to this organization for a modest $150. I paid $69 for it on namejet a couple weeks ago. I was really tempted to ask for more but when in doubt I just try to do what seems right. They were very grateful and seemed happy about it. I'm happy to do what I hope is the right thing, although to be honest I really wanted to make some money. I'm trying my hand at domain flipping to make money and not friends. I guess that's why I'm not a good businessman cause I can never seem to just be all about the money. This is one of about 4 things I have going to try and pay the bills and maybe I should give it up. Sorry for the rant and thanks again for everyone's feedback.
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