quest

At T.R.A.F.F.I.C. Tina Dam, Senior Director of IDNs at ICANN spoke on gTLDs in general and on IDN gTLDs. She noted yesterday’s success with 4 .IDN ccTLDs moving forward in the Fast Track process.
When asked about whether there will be a Fast Track gTLD process, Tina said that it has been discussed at length but she doesn’t see it happening.
So what does this mean for non-latin gTLDs? She did not say if she does not see it happening in the near future or at all. In any case, ccTLDs in Russian, Arabic, Chinese markets will have a big head start, this is more or less clear by now. Besides, I personally don't even see the need for aliasing of existing com/net idn.ascii to idn.idn. Russian, Chinese and arabs will do perfectly well with their ccTLD or may be another Idn.idn gTLD besides com/net. I understand the desire of people who hold large portfolios of those to have it their way but this is probably the last reason ICANN will take into consideration.
On the other hand, latin gTLD (Spanish, French etc) has proven to be a safe bet since they do not require any fast track or alising (if this ever going to happen to non-latins at all). They are already functional, do not need aliasing since com/net/org etc in latins is com/net/org and inclusion of Spanish gTLD domain TarjetasDeCrédito.com (Credit Cards) into Traffic auction proves that domaining community sees these as already having investment value. As far as non-latins, time will show. So far, the situation with them is still unclear at best - and market does not like uncertainty.
So far the approach of Icann seems logical. It is need based. With Latin idn gTLD it is making already existing domains work 100% with correct orthography. With ccTLD is to allow countries to have their respective extensions in their languages.
The motive for com/net idn.ascii>idn.idn is very weak, not need based and purely speculative. This is why I don't see it as ICANN priority even if it's possible technically.

Phio

Hi Quest,

Aliasing of .com/.net to IDNs is already in the works. It may be a year, or it may not be a year. I think it will be sooner rather than later. Tina is mostly concerned with the IDN cctlds and their immediate launch. We do know that Arabic certainly needs the aliasing of .com/.net as the language is spread across so many countries, likewise for many other languages.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/idn-discussion/635606-state-of-idn-gtld.html

However one thing is obvious, users now can enter a word in their browser bar then hit the ctrl-enter, and boom you are at an IDN website.

Try it with: 外星人 (cut paste into browser, then hit cntl-enter)


As far as timing goes, thing may change fast as the fast track for IDN cctlds gets into the root. 4 countries to start with another 12 not far behind.

It's only a matter of weeks now.


Phio

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quest

I know that IDN have future but I think that concerns only latins, in other words, already existing domains that now can be written as they grammatically should. The sales (and recent auction) data says that this is what is reasonable to assume. So far all we have as far as serious sales is German idns (already existing domains-de) and recent inclusion of Spanish idn CreditCards.com in Traffic auction.
And nothing about non-latins beyond few small time sales reported inside small group of non-latin "investors" who seem to convince themselves that idn.ascii in Russian and Chinese have a tremendous future simply because .com is a worldwide brand so ICANN will have no recourse but give up and alias these domains which happy Aborigines would rush to embrace.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=635606
The main reason I don't believe this is going to happen is not because it's not possible technically- it could be done of course. The question is why would it be done?
There is simply no need for Russian, Chinese or Japanese, etc com/net aliasing.
It would be interesting to hear an advocate of idn.ascii>idn.idn aliasing explaining the reasons why this should happen. But you will not hear anything serious beyond ".com is king".
It is certainly king in US and languages spread across multiple countries for the reason that they need a generic domain. Other than that, ccTLD is always preferred. In case of China or Russia... Is it so far fetched to imaging the situation when the use of .com is declared "unpatriotic" there?

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гешефтмахер.com

Phio

Have to disagree with you there. It's highly needed for the future of commerce between countries.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=635606

You see the governments will have control of the IDNcctld, and have restricted the registration of many names. All geo names and many other valuable names will go to the government as reserved.

россия.РФ will be used by the government. россия.ком will be used commercially. The owner of россия.COM has the rights to россия.ком and the aliasing will enable this to take place.

The same is needed for all languages. .Com will be used commercially worldwide in both ascii and transliterated IDN forms.

There is no need to stop the flow of commerce in the world. Any sort of limiting will be harmful to the free flow of goods and trade.

Phio

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quest

I think this is not very convincing. .Com is needed to facilitate trade... Who said that .com will be used to "facilitate trade"? This is a nice theory... Why not .ws? or another domain? And why not ccTLD? Why россия.COM is needed to "facilitate trade"? And why not россия.ws? You know, creating a theory and then trying to adjust life to fit into this theory is called social engineering. Or delusion. You pick what it is in this case.

Phio

It's not a theory. It's just the natural course of things. While .com is a big worldwide brand that has the widest following, some languages are better suited to IDN.net when translated. So both IDN.com and IDN.net will be used quite extensively worldwide.

Naturally people want domains in their own languages, and .com and .net provide more security and safety. As far as other extensions, we see .TV growing in popularity with IDNs, .info and .org are also contenders. IDN sales in .com .de .eu and a few other extensions are growing. You can see it if you follow dnjournal sales reports over the last year. But in reality, it will be other languages that will soon overtake latin based IDNs in sales.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=635606

Arabic will have some huge money investors, as well as Chinese. We see this coming this year, and not next.

It's simple really, great domains in foreign languages make great sense. There is no invention here.

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quest

It will not be a theory when you get ICANN subscribe to it. So far I don't see why ICANN would be interested.

Phio

Not theory anymore, it's going to happen and of course it makes sense to all .com and .net holders who are interested. And I assure the domaining community is very happy about this...

Chuck Gomes of verisign on an ICANN thread.

"Mike,

Let me use our own plans for IDN versions of .com and .net as an
example. Our current plans that we have communicated to our customers
and others is as follows:
Second level registrants for any .com or .net domain names will have the
right to activate their second-level name for any IDN versions of the
corresponding .com or .net name and no one else will be allowed to do
that.
All second level registrations for IDN versions of .com or .net will be
associated with their corresponding ASCII .com or .net as applicable.
In essence, the result will be that all active second level domain names
for .com or .net (ASCII or IDN) will have the same registrant. For any
that are not activated, they will be unavailable to others.
I don't think there should be any user confusion in the DNS in this
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=635606
approach. Do you?

Chuck"

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quest

I see. But these are Mr. Gomez' plans. Of course verisign would be interested in this. This would bring then nice profit, selling each domain many times-what a concept... However he can't even start that scheme without ICANN (and this would take up to 1.5 years if it ever starts, according to him). Will ICANN go along with verisign plans? So far ICANN says that they "don't see it happening".

Phio

Actually it will happen. I think once about 15 IDN.IDNcctlds are released (around June 2010) the need will become self-evident. There will probably be a separation between the release of new gtlds and IDNgtlds, enabling IDNgtlds to be fast tracked.

ICANN is already aware of the need for this, as it will be beneficial to Western countries and the US Dept. of Commerce, to continue to give Westerners greater access into foreign markets through the use of aliased .com and .net websites.

In terms of IDN value, Rick Latona had some interesting comments last week:

Originally Posted by Rick Latona
"Even though 2009 closed with growing momentum at his company, Latona doesn't expect to see a complete recovery in 2010. "From my viewpoint, it's all about going global. While most of us feel that we are on the cutting edge of the Internet and see what others can't, I'd like to be a little more realistic and say that our industry is maturing. The real growth is going to come from ccTLDs and foreign language IDNs," Latona said.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=635606

"A lot of what we are doing with taking T.R.A.F.F.I.C. global is attempting to get closer to the people who are or will be major players in those areas. There may not be major sales in those categories in 2010 but as they say, "the check is in the mail". The breakout will most likely come in 2011 but for our part, we will be positioning ourselves in 2010 for the inevitable," Latona said. "New markets mean new players. Expect to hear of people that you had never heard of before. Somewhere out there, there is someone sitting on a killer portfolio of future value domains waiting to pounce. I will be waiting with open arms."

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quest

So you are saying .com is to give an advantage to westerners in accessing local markets? This statement will definitely help locals to give a warm welcome to Mr. Gomez' plans.
As far as Latona's comments... I personally don't see anything there about idn.ascii. I see him speaking of ccTLD and IDNs in general (and foreign markets). I already said that IDNs are a fact of life today -but only latins and approved ccTLDs. Everything else is plans, wishes, desires and speculations.

Phio

When Rick says this "Somewhere out there, there is someone sitting on a killer portfolio of future value domains waiting to pounce." He is talking about current IDN.com and IDN.net holders.

Yes to continue to increase commerce to sites around the world, savvy western business owners will invest in IDN.com/net and IDN.IDNcctlds. These are the domains of the future internet. They are recognizable by everyone in their respective countries. They are easy to remember, easy to type, and will receive tons of traffic in the years to come.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=635606

All IDNs are increasing in usefulness and value. In terms of latin based IDNs, the biggest need is in Vietnam.

Yes and remember that .com and .net are under US regulations, so they are a much safer bet than cctlds. And as they are translated into respective languages, the value will increase. 'Hindilanguage'.com holders will receive access to the Hindi version of .com, hence openning up access to 800 million Hindi speakers in India.

It's really quite a bright future.

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Fka200

From the discussions I've had with them, yes. It's up to Verisign to do what they want with anything that sounds similar to com and net. No one else can touch it except them, and they have already shown much interest in what Phio is talking about and have even brought up the issue themselves years ago.

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quest

No doubt verisign is interested in this. Selling one domain several times- who wouldn't?
But ultimately the users will decide. By now, ccTLDs will have a good head start in China, Russia,Japan and other markets. In a few years (if verisign gets its way) com/net will have to compete anew with already established cc's. Look, you are talking about this as it's written in stone. I think this is misleading. What we know for sure is that latin gTLDs are working and ccTLDs that the countries will apply for are going to work. This is what is in stone today. As far as idn.ascii aliasing is all just interested parties guessing, lobbying and hoping.

Fka200

http://xn--eqrt2gk4d.com/118
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=635606

Some people aren't waiting around with their hands in their pockets. Though a ccTLD, it is still shown as idn.ascii.

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quest

That's not the point. The point is that until ICANN's expressed commitment to aliasing or making them work in any other way (which is not even on the agenda according to recent statements), idn.ascii are a very speculative investment and unlike Latin gTLDs IDNs (Spanish or French etc)or ccTLDs, it's very unlikely that they will appear on any serious auction site.

wellmanneredsquirrel

Guys, if I remember correctly, ICANN's position has always been to be 'fair' with ccTLDs and not disadvantage them over .com and .net, thus the fast-tracking of qualified IDN ccTLD now. I don't think the present situation is a sign that .com and .net will not get the nod for aliasing in a reasonable amount of time.

Am I right ?

Phio

Good points! Especially since I own many valuable Spanish and French IDNs.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=635606

And of course German, we can't forget those valuable German IDNs...
From dnjournal:
By Ron Jackson

The chart toppers are a pair of previously unreported six figure .de (German ccTLD) sales, including one that ranks as the highest IDN sale ever reported (easily eclipsing Büromöbel.de - a sale that we reported just last week at $100,749). The new reigning champion is Gartenmöbel.de ("garden furniture" in German), sold by DomainInvest.lu for a stunning €150,000 ($214,500). They also sold the other domain that tied for first - one that makes up a matching set - the non-IDN Gartenmoebel.de.

These two domains may look familiar because they had been previously sold to DomainInvest just last March at €50,000 ($67,500) each via Sedo.

The two resales were made not long after. DomainInvest's Freddy Schiwek told us the resales were not made at the same time but they were made to the same buyer. Schiwek said, "We sold Gartenmoebel.de to an end user in Germany in late spring but kept the IDN version - Gartenmöbel.de. During the summer the buyer came back to us asking for the IDN version because he was so impressed by the added value he got out of his generic domain name. So we sold him the IDN as well."

"The buyer originally thought that he was buying the better domain in the non IDN but the IDN version actually had twice as much traffic!" Schiwek said. "Still it was really hard to get him to pay the same price for the IDN, because he really thought that no one types in IDNs. Well today he knows better! A really nice online shop is now behind the domains."


On another note: here are the top 3 reported IDN sales:

Москва.com xn--80adxhks moscow russian 216,000
gartenmöbel.de xn--gartenmbel-kcb garden furniture german 214,500
ギャンブル.com xn--ock3dqb7a0b gambling generic japanese 150,000

Of course there are probably many sales that go unpublished.

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yanni

The aliasing part is not ICANN's job to consider. It's up to the registry running the approved gtld.

If Verisign gets .ком when IDNtlds are a go, it's up to them weather they'll alias the existing Cyrillic .coms to the Russian version, or not.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=635606

So far, what we know is likely to happen [ see Chuck Gomez's quote on Phio's post above ] is the aliasing. What we don't know is 'When' ICANN will go ahead with the introductions of the new gtlds.

.

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quest

This is exactly other way around, according to verisign (Gomes), as I understand. Not aliasing. They want not aliasing but "right assignment" i.e. every owner of .com will have a right to register "equivalent" of it in say, .ком (and pay up for it registration). This is, of course if verisign gets .ком. As far as ICANN, they would have to come up with a lot of new gTLDs for that. They can't just come up with only .ком - it would have to be all languages at once. Besides, ICANN is probably straggling with it- this is way too preferential for verisign.

Phio

????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=635606
Actually IDNgtlds are the only ones that make sense, except maybe .food

IDNgtlds really need to be split off from the regular new gtld process and be allowed to start sooner, rather than later.

IDNgtlds will help promote commerce throughout the world in a global manner. With billions not knowing how to write english, this will be a boom for the internet. Perhaps the thing we are looking for to stimulate the economy. The department of commerce really needs to take note, and push ICANN to split the release of between asciiGtlds and IDNGtlds to enable the IDNGtlds to go in very quickly. It makes much more sense to the world market and to the expansion of the global internet. Remember that IDNcctlds are more limiting (more restrictions) and IDNGtlds have a much broader appeal. And of course, .com and .net in any IDN language will be a plus for marketing and broadening sales and increasing revenue streams.

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yanni

You can call it any way you want; at the end of the day if .ком is awarded, it will go to Verisign. We know what Verisign wants to do with it.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=635606

No-one said that they will only come up with .ком. It was used as an example.

COM is a brand. Just as Microsoft will be awarded their brand in any script they want, so will Verisign [or whomever is handling .com at the time]. It has nothing to do with preferential treatment.

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quest

I am not calling it any way I want. I am calling it the way it is. This is not aliasing. It's extremely profitable scheme for verisign and this represents a problem for ICANN because there is no real pressing need to create all these new extensions apart from a questionable "brand indispensable for global trade" theory. Besides, how they will be created and what would be the process? ICANN is a budget organization and creating multiple domains which are not really needed will raise few eyebrows and require long consultations with all local parties. And then what? Then .org/info/biz? Why not?
ICANN is risking to open a pandora box for themselves.

Phio

Actually they are needed especially for Arabic, Cyrillic, and Chinese languages which spread across multiple countries. If one takes the time to see it from this perspective, it becomes a simple way to open up the internet globally. It will give an American or Swedish company, the ability to own and develop a Chinese or Arabic website, and markit to those billion or so people who don't read or write in English. The American or Swedish company can use the global transliterated version of .com and create a website that is easy to use and remember. There really is no other alternative, and perhaps the best way for corporations to market to the 'next billion' users on the internet. Try to look at it as a positive thing -- because it really is a positive thing.

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quest

Look, you are advocating all these nice theories of "need" for .com (especially .com ) because you have registered few idn.ascii in those languages. This is the only reason you think .com is an asset.
This is not enough for ICANN. ICANN has other priorities than enrich verisign or few idn.ascii "investors". They are doing what is actually needed-ccTLDs so people who speak other languages can use them online. Creating hundreeds of new idn gTLDs (and this what you are talking about) to give people in other countries the questional priviledge of being able to use versions of ascii gTLDs does not make sense.
All I hear is that "it would be nice" , "it would help trade" etc. Yes, it would not hurt, probably. But the real life scenario is going to be different, imho. Insteado of creating hundreeds of equivalents of .com/net/org/info/biz etc, why not create a symbol (or numeric) extension for international trade? That every country could use? Would it not be cost effective, easier and make more sense?
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=635606
In any case, ICANN is not even considering idn.ascii at this moment and focus on ccTLDs.
So this is what is going to work as we KNOW now- ccTLDs and Idn.IDN (the ones that already exist-latins). The rest is never going to happen- this is my opinion based on the analysis of objective need and ICANN' capabilities and limitations.