snoop

Moderate boom, not so good ending.

What we have seen in the last few years with .tv is very much a repeat of the past. A moderate boom followed by a big bust where most of the .tv secondary market gets wiped out value wise. I say “moderate” because whilst prices go up a lot a great deal of it is eroded by the very high reg fees people are paying. It isn’t like in other extensions where the holding costs are far more “minimal” especially for the higher quality names.

The amount of people making a profit was still very limited during the good times, to the point where we had arguments about whether anyone was actually making money and even the top end was claims of people making 6 figures over a period of several years. Nothing wrong with that, but when it is the top end is 30k a year it doesn’t leave a lot or potential for the people at the lower end.

.tv speculation rarely works out well simply because the domainer is buying from a company that is already speculating. Verisign paid $50million over 12 years to get hold of .tv and their aim is to price things so they are making those speculative profits, not you. They need to because their investment is high. Essentially they are keeping the farm and selling the milk, can’t blame them for that.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/dot-tv/639970-tv-past-present-future-why-will.html

Think of those premium renewals as “renting”, you don’t really “own” the name, not when you are committing to pay $500 a year for a name that may not even be worth keeping down the track. Speculating on premiums is a bit like signing a lease on a house, then leave it empty hoping to sell that lease to someone else for a high price later on. Rarely is that going to work out well.

Essentially if you hope to make money from .tv you hope to outwit Verisign at a game they control. If Verisign could do with .com what they do with .tv it wouldn’t be a good extension for speculation either. When talk started about Verisign potentially having more control of pricing in .com people start making arguments about potential “.tv like” scenarios, there is just very little money in it for domainers when you have the registry speculating against you.

A look back at the past

To illustrate how things really haven’t changed here is a great example from the prior boom, 2000-2002. This guy who named himself the “Dot TV King” eventually lost millions in .tv. He bought up tons of premium names and normal reg fee names as well. He also participated in aftermarket auctions, I remember him winning rockandroll.tv for about $1500, he had premium names like Beijing.tv and Advertising.tv. Some were sure he'd be the next gazillionaire. Eventually all those names were left to drop when the .tv market collapsed in 2002.

Note how the arguments quoted below on his website are exactly the same as what people said in the next boom, 05-07, and most people didn't fare any better. Some made a profit, cashing out to other domainers when hype levels were high, but the hype never lasts.

www.dottvking.tv Year 2001

If someone posted all that here today half the forum would praise them for being a "forward thinker", in reality it is ideas from Y2K, that is all well and good if those ideas are actually valid, but twice now they have proven not to be.

The next boom

When people start speculating on .tv again personally I think it will be the same old stuff for a third time. I think this market will see another boom/bust cycle so I disagree with those who think this market will never improve. However the same mistakes will be repeated again in my view ie,

-Thinking that .tv is a general use extension rather than a niche.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970
-That .tv is the future while other extensions represent the past.
-That there is money in buying up lots of premium reg fee names.
-That $18-$35 isn't much for domainers to pay for as a renewal on the non premiums.
-That .tv usage will grow quickly resulting in higher prices due to enduser demand.
-That they as domainers can easily develop lots of .tv sites.

All of the above are flawed arguments. I think the only difference next time will be a new bunch of players.

freedom30

...and thus Don Quixote, the man of La Mancha, wandered thru the desert for many days on end. The object of his quest ever closer and clearer past the setting sun. His only respite being the occasional brief resting of his ever tiring ass, being encumbered with the load that the proud crusader put upon him, making the stop justified.

The inane edict that he wrote for the ignorant masses will be read and obeyed, he mused. As he set forth once again to volunteer his humble services of ominous portents, self-assured that he had reached his destination and have come within sight of his personal El Dorado, he envisioned a throng of grateful followers behind him.

The sun of progress and technology is a clever jokester. It doth drive the most brave man to the brink at times, yet the goal remains within reach in his heart.

The 20th century is far closer right now than the 22nd century, he reasons, and battles opponents of differing perspectives and inclinations.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970

For Don Quixote, fearless(and timeless) conquistador, the time is at hand. A new bunch of infidels anxiously will await your arrival.

To battle, dear crusader. Long live your cause!

__________________
.TV - go ahead...turn it on!

DomainSales.TV

Jimbojimbo

Snoop

Thank you for taking the time to finally pinpoint your own very personal view of the failings of .TV

I, for the first time, now understand YOUR views and the very slanted angle from which they are observed. I do appreciate your concerns, but feel you really are, once again, depicting yourself as the man from the past who never moved on. You stopped learning in 2000 and we all know what happens to people who can’t adequately adapt to genuine change...

Still, taking your own words and so-called ’facts’ I think we should examine the information you supplied. Firstly, you example fo the perfect loser was the ‘dot tv king’ and his names...

www.dottvking.tv

The page showed a list of names for sale and was your example of what a crazy guy this man was. He was such an idiot as to have purchased names like: screen-loans.tv, irish-dancing.tv, europe-direct.tv, and so on.

Firstly, half the names you claimed were premium names are actually not, so his ownership of names like: FengShui.tv, Shinto.tv, Casinos.tv, VegasCasino.tv, even RockandRoll.tv were all at NORMAL renewal rates. That doesn’t seem that mad to me in 2010.

And then we look at the PREMIUM names this crazy guy actually possessed. Ridiculous names like: Beijing.tv, Concert.TV, Shanghai.TV, etc.

Our fool also had in his collection names like Vegas.tv, ME.tv, Private.tv and Gambling.tv. Now these names are interesting. You say our fool lost millions on these investments. I find this really sad, because, Vegas.Tv went on to be sold in 2004 for $350,009 and only JohnTV can told you what he sold ME.TV to Verisign for - but it wasn’t chickenfeed. Also that person would still today own Gambling.tv for $50 a year and Private.tv for $100 a year. Names that could be sold in an instant with a very hefty profit.

So, looking at your facts it appears we have once again seen why your comments are always so merrily dismissed - they are plain and simple WRONG and out of date - but more importantly, they are absent of genuine REAL information. Snoop, you only see what you want to see, not what is actually really happening. Listening to you is like listening to the carriage maker suggesting that you should stick with horse and carriage because ‘petroleum will soon run out’. Yes, it is kind of true - but it’s actually really wrong.

Now that we undrestand your flawed logic we can look at the mistakes people will make according to you and analyse each properly:

1 Thinking that .tv is a general use extension rather than a niche.

There is such a big difference between your world view from 2002 and that of eight years later in 2010. I really don’t know what world you live in, but in the part of the world I know best, the UK and Europe I can see with my own eyes that .Tv is in GENERAL use. Why else would it be used on every third or fourth ad on television or posted on walls, vans, etc.

You also conveniently omitted to mention that the technology to actually show internet TV has gone leaps and bounds since 2002 and I can now watch every programme I ever wanted to from my laptop.


2 That .tv is the future while other extensions represent the past.

I doubt anyone has this view. They may think that .Tv is a very viable alternative to the other extensions past, present, and future.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970


3 That there is money in buying up lots of premium reg fee names.

The people who think this are indeed the big gamblers - and for the most people who adhere to this philosophy have made either massive profits or saddeningly bad losses. I would not buy a premium at all if I could help it - but I still merrily hold on to five premiums (three in the $xxx range and two in the $xxxx range). Premiums are bad news in the main, but thankfully some 90% of .Tv names are not premiums at all, just standard reg names. I have only ever had one serious and HIGH offer on my highest priced premium and it was for 10 times its premium amount (and was turned down).


4 That $18-$35 isn't much for domainers to pay for as a renewal on the non premiums.

I do have problems paying anything above $20 for a renewal, and so does any sane person on the planet, but compared to the rewards I would rather renew Tourist.Tv for $25 each year than BeATourist.com, ILikeToTravelALot.com and TouristyTime.com for the same amount.

????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970

5 That .tv usage will grow quickly resulting in higher prices due to enduser demand.

The facts are obvious to all but the blind. Enduser demand is growing as more and more .TV names are being developed and launched by new starts all the way up to massive corporations. Sorry to go all ‘economist’ on your parade, but I was always taught that a higher demand tends to be followed by an increased supply or a higher price. I can’t see an increase in supply as we are dealing with a finite issue, so what must come next...?


6 That they as domainers can easily develop lots of .tv sites.

Finally, a really good and factually correct notion. Yes, way too many people believe they can develop hundreds of names when in reality they will be lucky to do three to five a year properly.

Yes, there are micro-sites and all manner of templates, but there is no substitute for a well developed site that has interesting and pertinent content.


FINALLY

Snoop, yes .Tv is prone to boom and bust, but to latch on to the recent bust as though it were the sole fault of the extension is stupidity in its purest form. We have been in a global recession that has affected ALL areas of the economy, including .com names, house prices, shares, car sales, etc. The recession is not an excuse though for buying crappy names. Boom and bust is natural and what makes some people rich and some poor.

It has been pointed out time and time again that the word before the extension is more important than the extension - and that will always be the case.

People who buy names like irish-dancing.tv might actually come a cropper (and it is obvious to see), but buying Vegas.TV for $50 a year is a very intelligent move in anyone's book (except snoops).

Your concern is noted, as is your unfounded and unfactual personal hatred of the .TV extension.

snoop

That is not what I claimed,

"He bought up tons of premium names and normal reg fee names as well."

"I remember him winning rockandroll.tv for about $1500, he had premium names like Beijing.tv and Advertising.tv."

My point was not that he was a fool, my point was that he lost alot of money - millions. Later .tv speculators did much the same thing based on much the same arguments.

It is a bit like golf.tv, supposedly sold for $600k (to a domainer who has always parked it). Dnjournal was covering greatdomains sales at the time and there was no mention of it, do you wonder why? Ironically even if he had have sold it for that it wouldn't have helped him much given what he had spent on .tv.

It is seen on tv alot because that is its niche, "TV". The two areas where .tv makes sense is television eg infomercials, tv networks, tv shows, the other key area is online video focused sites. Chopsticks.tv, Bird.tv is where it doesn't make much sense. It isn't general use.

Agree.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970

That is the point.....bad news.

Tourist.tv went 6 years ago. It isn't a good example of what speculators have been spending their $25 renewing. If people did have portfolios filled with names like tourist.tv then $25 wouldn't be an issue, the reality of the situation is very different. People have very ordinary quality one and two word names that they are renewing at $25 a pop.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970


Read the last part of the sentence, .tv prices aren't gowing, indeed values have fallen off a cliff. We had better reported sales in 2004 & 2005 than we are seeing today.

Last time .tv'ers blamed the .com crash, at the end of the day though the booms in .tv are weak, and the busts far worse than other extensions, it all comes back to Verisign taking most of the speculative profits. It is a bit like standing at the roulette table while the guy next to you has his hand all over your chips.

MillersCrossing

Snoop,

I would say that you need to drop/sell every single .net you own. I think it has crashed even worse than .TV.

You also have bet wrong and heavily so with .net. And not just your famous dogs/cats.net - but look at you - u can't sell healthcare.net for $k28 BIN.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970

And whats worse - this environment has never been better for the keyword in 50++ years.

If you were to do a namecount on the word healthcare uttered on the news for the last year and a bit, I bet healthcare wins hands down after "Obama".

And yet, no takers - none.

The truth is that .tv has gone down the toilet, with recovery POTENTIAL, as tv/video becomes forever linked to the net and this will only increase - whether or not in 3 5 10 years, or to a strong enough a degree remains to be seen.

But .NET - it is now one of thousands - with ZERO significance to the internet other than its history - the cousin to .com that could get bought when there was no .com available. Sure .net means .internet - but so does .ws - it means .website - and we know how well that's doing.

The truth is that since Enom/Verisign decided to put skin in the game and find those end users with the money or risktakers (domainers) willing to take a punt wher they will need to sell the value of the price they are asking AND the premium fee.

I am wondering as to the percentage of PREMIUM .tv sales between 2006-2008 were domainer2domainer rather than end users.

The difference - if the majority were domainer2domainer - it gave no indication either way whether or not end users would swallow the bitter ( lets shaft you twice) pill.

Im not saying it hasnt happened but I would be interested if anyone has that data.

But to wound things up Snoop - what you ARE saying is that you do not give yourself enough credit for being one of those to see the misery of .tv, and say to yourself - I CAN STILL MAKE MONEY!!!!! Or is a paltry xxx,xxx not worth your time? (You could have still saved 90% of your time and made billions with .com)

Or perhaps you realised you are not skillful enough with .tv?? Fair game. No need to feel bad about it. Not for everyone.

But to suggest that you are seriously aimed at extensions that make money - .net i a joke. You probably lost more money in .net than this entire forum has lost (with four glaringly huge exceptions)
on .tv.

You should have seen the writing on the wall Sir - back in 2006 - I dumped all my .nets, cause once the CCTLDS were kicking ass - you should have forseen there was no turning back with .net.

.Org is an exception as it is the first and last name that we instantly (sometimes wrongly) associate with not for profits

.Tv will only bounce back and with a vengience if premium pricing was dropped overnight. NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN

Jimbojimbo

You return arguments are weaker than I've ever seen you offer.

I assume you were one of those people who took a big hit from .TV 'back in the day' and this is some form of bizarre repayment/atonement ritual.

The only thing I will suggest is that I find it somewhat aggravating that I wrote "The recession is not an excuse though for buying crappy names' and yet you suggest I am blaming the recession. That shows how low your arguments have dipped.

There is a steady real-world growth in .TV and that has NOT changed one bit regardless of whether there is a recession/depression or whatever. You really couldn't say that with many other domain extensions - or even things like house prices, shares, etc.

snoop

On one hand you talk about usage, providing no actual stats or comparisons, then you compare that to "prices" of other assets and claim .tv has done better than other areas. It is a bit like saying realestate has done better than something else because there is now more houses in the USA than 3 years ago.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970

The .tv market has done far worse than realestate or shares. That could be said of the entire domain market aswell, but I can't think of anything that has fallen harder than .tv, even LLLL.com and .mobi I don't think have done as badly - though they are probably close.

---------- Post added at 03:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 PM ----------

Personally I'm not a big believer in .net, which is why I having been selling them for a couple of years - as you say suggest, every single one. Overall I have a pretty reasonable profit from it though despite the loss on dogs.net/cats.net.

Of the names I have sold over the last couple of years (in all extensions) 20% have been at a loss and 80% at a profit.

I think some others still fail to understand that.

Agree, I think it is a really big ask which is why so many premiums are being dropped. Mostly they were priced for endusers yet domainers pulled the trigger and bought them (largely due to the hype), ie they paid enduder prices.

If you are making money today then their is no reason to listen to me. My message goes out to those who get their taxes done each year and the line next to domain trading says "loss of....". It is also a message for who are getting into domaining and think this is a good area to invest in.

Agree with that part.

garptrader

I'll agree with the .TV pessimists that one should avoid premium renewals and that if you are going to speculate with .TV only go for the best names. We are only in mid-February and I have sold six domains via Godaddy Premium Listings this year. Five were .COM, none had serious search volume and in most cases the .Net wasn't even registered. You cannot even list a .TV with Godaddy's Premium Listings service. End users want .COM domains and with the exception of major CCTLD (.de, .co.uk, .es) other extensions are much harder to sell.

__________________
http://www.genericdomains.net/
http://www.dominericos.com/
http://www.premiumdomains.tv/

sdsinc

That's the bottom line.

Really ? The more things change, the more they remain the same.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970

Over the last 10 years .com has continued to grow at a dramatic page, ccTLDs are soaring and .tv... is nowhere close in terms of exposure and awareness. It's clearly lagging behind other prominent extensions and not catching up.

I think all of us should think for a minute about which extensions they visit on a daily basis. For me it's .com & ccTLDs. The rest, much less often.

What does it have to do with .tv ?
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970

Of course .tv is a niche extension and not general use. .tv makes sense with TV-related keywords/concepts, otherwise it's just another extension. You could append .cc or .ws instead.

.tv is not 'crashing' because it is not taking off. It wouldn't be falling from high.

Even if premium pricing was dropped there is no reason why it would significantly boost the extension.
It means more premium domains available and more confidence in the extension but what else.

I think you need to come to grips with the fact that it's a niche TLD, that could fare better in different hands, but is not poised to become the equal of .com/ccTLD.

The trick is, it's difficult to provide stats because there are none. At least there are not registration stats available (hint: ever wonder why).
Perception aside, it's not hard to figure out that other extensions are doing better.

__________________
NameNewsletter.com - free lists of available domain names
ZoneFiles.net (beta) - ccTLD and gTLD droplists

freedom30

...and with his ever faithful Sancho to protect him from the 21st century, Don Quixote yet again feels a renewed awe-inspiring tinge of self-conceived righteousness regarding the quest.

Verily, the 20th century never looked so good in their collective eyes...and they knew that soon the day would come when they would welcome it back, casting the heathens down with their blasphemies and their brazenly daring to speculate on the .tv extension without shame.

Quixote, on his ass, and Sancho along side him, dare to raise the banner of the 20th century high, so all around them can see the valiant and epic struggle they undertake to free this forum of any sense of the existence and reality of 21st century speculation and development.

Aye, though the battle rages on, their bloodlust know no limits as they sing of the .com riches of Solomon that they leave behind to guide and instruct us of the evils of the vile and pagan extension that is the heretical .tv. Such is the convocation and sacrifice of the altruistic pair.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970

What Saints these two crusaders be! They have earned the respect of history...they shall never perish as long as their quest is yet to be attained.

Ride on, conquistadors, a new day and battle awaits...

__________________
.TV - go ahead...turn it on!

DomainSales.TV

snoop

I think if the premium pricing were dropped it would result in there being more of an obvious market, purely in terms of there being more names that actually have value, hence more trading. I think it would have a lesser effect on the names already at "normal" reg fees but probably still somewhat positive for those names. I think it is all a moot point though as it makes very little sense for Verisign to change things.

Whilst I think there is probably usage growth I don't think it is any better than other extensions, and it isn't translating into higher values for these names. Not that the extension doesn't have its place in the market, but the niche area it is in and the pricing of these names doesn't justify much of a resale market. Regsitration stats wise I doubt it it is growing because of the speculation purge we are seeing from it. Pity we can't get that kind of data.

Jimbojimbo

Snoop

Please can we have facts not rhetoric....

I'm sorry to inform, but that name actually belongs to me - and yes, I pay $25 a year renewal. AND YES, it's not an issue - so why tell me to drop .TV?? Is that because you want me to buy dogs.net or cats.net - names you admit lost you money yet you fail to note that .net has fared worse than other extensions.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970



I think you mean 'fallen off a cliff - for you'.

In many ways your words are similar to the actions of the little boy who wants to take his ball home because he's not on the winning team.

Can I remind you of what has been already noted on countless threads. Words from a man we ALL respect as being genuine and honest - the man who built this section up in the first place...

So, who is right?

You - a man who spends all his time slagging off .TV but fails to mention why he is doing so?

or

Equity - the man who built the .Tv section and is famed for being honest and straighforward.


I will take my choice, others may want to make their own decision.

snoop

You compared to 4 word .com's with little meaning though as though the is the choice people have, pay registrations of a name like tourist.tv or pay registration fees on 4 word near meaningless .com's. The fact is the name was bought for 4k from what I can see of it and was registered 6 years ago. If you are going to compare it to a .com it probably needs to be compared to something worth 4k. Nobody is telling you to drop tourist.tv. The cases of premium names without premium renewals is about the only area of value in the .tv marketplace.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970

Original comment below,

Didn't I just state that I'm not big on .net? Secondly why would I want you to buy names I have already sold?

Frankly I've been bagging the extension (.net) for some time. It has done worse than most areas of the market from what I can see of it and I don't see the same upside as other areas. I don't think it has done worse than .tv however. There is still a significant amount of value in the extension, in terms of lots of trading, but at much lower levels than in the past. The same cannot be said for .tv

Jimbojimbo

??????? If those knots and webs of little fibs get a little confusing.......just talk waffle!


BUT THIS IS SERIOUS - this is about people's investments. And you slagging .TV off in some vane hope that they will buy .net is ridiculous.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970

Just read what you've written in this thread alone....



No wonder you wouldn't accept Finsters friendly bet!

snoop

I don't follow this post, I said .net had done badly compared to the overall market, but not to the degree of .tv.

squee

Hey, this is kinda off topic but i am going to tell
.tv doman is originated from Tuvalu (an island nation in Pacific Ocean)
Tuvalu government shared rights of ".tv" domain with VeriSign.

It's just a note

benzdorf

Now..Thats news too me !!... wow that changez everything !

__________________
That's my story and im sticke'n to it ! ollotv.com the LiL brother of ollo.tv the search engine that findz dotTVz

sdsinc

TBH .tv is not that bad, actually what's been said about .tv could be said about .me as well.
.tv has its own strengths and weaknesses, but when you start investing in second and third tier extensions, logically you are contemplating a more limited market. It's tougher to speculate in niche extensions because of limited demand, pretty logical isn't it.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970
It's hard enough to make good money in established extensions after all.

If you look at reported sales you can pretty much see which extensions are most popular - even if you know nothing about the market. .tv doesn't make a lot of appearances. It's one telltale sign.
I know that most sales are unreported but that applies to other extensions too.

__________________
NameNewsletter.com - free lists of available domain names
ZoneFiles.net (beta) - ccTLD and gTLD droplists

Jimbojimbo

Nice point and I totally agree - and having checked with the 2009 sales figures at DNJournal
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=639970

DNJournal.com Year to Date Domain Sales Charts

we see that only ONE .Tv name found itself in the top 100 country code sales - the $62,000 sale of RT.tv coming in at number 25 in the chart. the rest were filled mostly with .de and .uk names.

The good thing to note here, is that if the .Tv extension can hob-nob with the big country extensions like those of Germany and the UK then that bodes well.




The facts do not suggest there is any similarity. In terms of sales, .TV is doing much better anecdotally AND according to the reported facts.

In the 2009 chart, mentioned above for a very successful sale of a.tv name, there was also only one listing for a .me name, Cloud.me at 90th place with a $22,000 sale

I then checked the year-to-date charts

DNJournal.com Year to Date Domain Sales Charts

I found NO listing for a .me name.

However, I did find Telefon.tv at $13,300 in the number 27 place


The perception and the reality of the .Tv extension are patently out of sync in the domainer to domainer world.

Whether this is good or bad in the long run is yet to be seen, but it does translate into lower prices for .Tv on the boards compared to their value in the real world. This could mean a great time to buy, or it could simply mean that the extension is dead in the water and picking up a .TV today is a bit like buying a deckchair on the Titanic - whatever price is paid, it will ultimately be a pointless purchase.

I follow the drops quite religiously and it appears that many others are still buying. Indeed, the last time I printed a list of available names - seven of them disappeared within less than five minutes!

snoop

The big difference is the holding costs. In .tv you'd need 3 times the level of sales compared to .me for it to be profitable, ie paying $9 per registration for a .me versus $25 for a .tv. I don't think .me has much of a market but it is quite a different scenario to .tv in my view.