No way to check renewal prices for SOLD premiums. Give feedback & you might Win.
Since ENOM recently changed their site and functionality for how premium .TVs are listed after they have sold, there is now no way to check premium renewal prices. What do you think?
So, what does everyone think? I'd love to here from resellers, developer, investors, everyone in general. What is the impact going to be on the domain aftermarket? Will sales slow down due to the mystery surrounding & lack of easy verification of the premium renewal price for a domain you're buying from the aftermarket? Will final sales prices increase due to renewal prices being hidden with buyers unaware? or Will final sales prices rise due to the fact the buyers have no way of using your original registration price against you?
I for one, am for the new change and welcome the new-found privacy changes as I am not a reseller, and as a developer, I have no desire for others to know the private details of my business.
So, what do you think? Please answer the poll and explain your answer.
I'll award 200NP$ to the best informative reply in this thread before the end of the month.
If you wish to read what I really think, I'll repost my original thoughts below:
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re: renewal prices not being displayed.
it is nobody's business but the owner of the domain name.
perhaps this was done to slow down the aftermarket and encourage more people to develop... to prevent/slowdown people from buying just to flip... to prevent new end-users/domainers/corporations from wondering why category killer domains only had $50-$500 renewals when less-than-stellar premiums cost $X,XXX-$XXX,XXX+
If someone spent 6 figures negotiating for a $50-$500 renewal on a premium name, it is nobody's business but their own.
IMHO
I don't feel comfortable posting my portfolio, or even certain .TV domains I own due to the fact that the renewal rate (and most-often original registration price) was readily available for the world to see. Now I feel a bit more comfortable and secure. i don't want others tallying up what I spend my money on. Even when I'm on EBAY and buying something a bit pricier, I buy under another name so that my friends/family/competitors/associates don't know what I'm spending my money on.
re: transparency for aftermarket sales & after-effect
if you're buying a premium, then ask the seller to PROVIDE proof, screenshot, Demand Media verbal verification, get signed contracts, etc of what renewal prices will be. Buyer be-aware & beware. Make sure you know what you are getting into. But this may also have a positive impact on the resale price of premium domains. There is a silver lining if you only look. Think big. Let me illustrate...
i.e. I registered a few premium .TVs for my "Business" & "Prosumer" network:
quick case study: SEM.TV - I plan to aggregate all the SEM how-to videos (thousands) across the web, use as a news/info channel, conduct interviews, reviews, analysis and education. also, produce our own video content, provide B2B services, etc.
If I was a domain seller, (I am a developer with no intention to sell the domains) and a buyer came along and saw what I paid for SEM.TV, how high would I be able to sell it for if the buyer found out I paid $WHATEVER$ amount? Would I get a 7 figure offer? No way. 6-figure offer? Of course not. But based on the wikipedia entry, SEM is a 9 BILLION DOLLAR market... and now, since my original domain registration cost is private... I have a stronger negotiation foundation... and can command and close on a much higher pricepoint.
I don't need anyone to believe what I'm saying, but I'm speaking from recent, real world experience, for day-to-day negotiations I've been in while trying to acquire domains and partner with domain owners, and from offers that have come my way from other domainers/endusers.
IMHO, and as it effects my business model, original premium Domain Registration prices & premium renewal rates being private is a step in the right direction. I hope it stays that way.
feel free to disagree, I like to hear it from all sides.
__________________ ~ A rising tide lifts all boats.
~ You won't get anywhere... if you don't start somewhere.
~ When it is dark enough... you can see stars.
This is not a helpful move IMO. Markets flourish with price transparency, and die without it. I can understand some concern with letting the world know what your renewal fees are, especially if you’re going to develop. In this case it is nobody’s business and you should have this option. But…
…. if you are selling your name or putting it up for auction then this needs to be easily verifiable information. There will be market abuse unless this is done in a transparent way. We can’t rely on ethical behavior by everyone, there needs to be checks and balances. Sure all of us here know about premium pricing, but 99%+ of those now checking GoDaddy or Sedo for TV names are clueless.
We’ve already seen examples on Sedo of premium tv names selling without informing buyers about premium renewals. Obviously there is a heck of a difference in buying ThisGreatDomain.tv for $9,000 with standard reg vs a $1,000 premium renewal. (Note, a $1,000 renewal in perpetuity is equivalent to paying $11,000 upfront using a 10% cost of funds. In other words you would be indifferent to paying $11k upfront vs $1k per year for ever if you could earn 10% on your money (IRR). You can reduce this value some because you have the option to put back the name to verisign if you no longer want to pay the renewals). Thus someone paying $9k without knowing about the $1k renewal is really making close to a $20k decision – quite a difference.
Another relevant example is the recent listing of hot.tv in this week’s DRT auction – listed with a guide price of $35k without any note of premium fees of $62,500 (I posted about this here: http://www.namepros.com/dot-tv/3573...-next-week.html ). Now how many people attending the Seattle event know to even ask the question about premiums? Nobody can cross check this information now. Imagine the surprise of a buyer who pays $50k and learns afterwards about a $62k annual renewal?
What prevents an unscrupulous person from regging a bunch of premium names, selling them to the general public (who is clueless about premium pricing) who thinks they are getting an amazing name but will not find out for a year about the renewal costs. Meanwhile unscrupulous operator has sold dozens of names, booked huge profits, and is happily living in a safe island jurisdiction?? Of course this could happen (and probably has) prior to this latest move, but at least there was a way to cross check premium names and renewals. Or some would find their way to namepros and get this information.
I think Enom’s solution throws out the baby with the bathwater. Worse, when you check a premium name now it only says that the name is “not available” – no suggestion that it is a premium name, and thus involves a non-standard registration fee.
There is a great need for a better solution. A solution that allows those that want to keep renewal rates private, but also an easily verifiable way to:
1. Check whether a .tv is a premium name or not (without reference to renewal rate)
2. Check renewal rates for those buying names directly or in auctions.
If these issues are not addressed I sense problems on the horizon. Markets and information seek to be free. Even if you only want to consider .tv a developer’s extension, a domain name is an asset, and a healthy after-market is an important element in valuing that asset. The more liquid and transparent a market the more valuable the asset becomes, the less transparent the less valuable. This move by enom reduces transparency & thus value.
As a buyer, I do not like this change. it adds yet another level of risk in terms of buying a domain from someone. I understand the privacy point, but they should at least give a domain holder the option of making the renewal price visible so that it can be externally verified
Firstly MrRhee, this is a great thread you have started - thank you.
I can see valid points to both sides here, but I believe price transparency is essential for a market to operate efficiently. Therefore I am strongly in favour of an easy way to verify whether a name is Premium and what the price is.
I endorse what I consider to be the excellent comments made by CarryOn.
Alot of people are still very confused or do not know about the premium pricing, doing this will just worsen that situation. Hopefully enom will rectify this terrible mistake.
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Lets face it! If you paid through the nose for a domain, would you want everyone to know? I would prefer some sort of anonymity if I purchased a high end name. They probably got complaints from customers and had to remove it or risk alienating their customers.
While I do not think this is good, I do understand. I think it makes buying on the after market a little bit of a gamble if you don't trust the seller 100%. I have seen many listings on sedo going for alot without any mention of renewals or anything... This will probably lead to all sorts of confusion at places like sedo where the auctions get bid up high only to find out there is a premium renewal. In this paticular scenario I could see the premium renewal coming into play and possibly killing the sale.
Since there is no uniformity to the premium pricing structure and many folks have dicounted renewal rates, there should be a way to check the price IMO. It will basically boil down to wether or not you can take the sellers word for it...
Apologies for the double post - just saw the prize money :-)
This little known back door link was hardly a suitable mechanism for a would-be buyer to confirm the true cost of ownership. Does buying a .TV have to be such a Wild West experience. Consumer Protection? The auction site (e.g. Sedo) should be held totally responsible for confirming that the true owner is advertising a domain with the true costs. That should also help them justify their "10%".
Does anyone know why the premium concept still exists?
It generates complexity, confusion and distrust and could be the barrier to investment that stops .TV owners, and Demand Media and Verisign, from catching the Internet TV train (will it travel via Tuvalu or xxxtv.com or xxx.iptv or any other alternative someone can dream of?).
Why doesn't Demand Media/Verisign just release premiums (as non-premiums) as flat price sales/auction. Existing premium holders should have an option to buy their liberty (e.g. equivalent to having paid 10 years premium). Then we have transparency and a fluid and open market. Unfinished projects/overpriced domains will be recycled quicker and put to a more postive use. Momentum will be swiftly gained making .TV the natural home for TV on the Web ... (and we all lived happily ever after)
lots of great feedback... I'd like to hear more from others and from the same people, now that about a week has passed... has the inability to check renewal prices affected your aftermarket sales/purchases? any influence whatsoever? I did speak with Demand Media today and voiced everyone's views and asked them to read this thread... and there's a good chance they will be reading this, so please post your suggestions...
I have already asked them if they could add an OPT-IN features for sellers to be able to display their renewal prices in order to keep the marketplace transparent, but I also let them know that I prefer the default to be opt-out and private. This week alone, I was confronted with why my renewal price should be private and I'm glad the feature was already in place.
Hope to hear back from lots of you on this important matter.
Good Luck to all.
__________________ ~ A rising tide lifts all boats.
~ You won't get anywhere... if you don't start somewhere.
~ When it is dark enough... you can see stars.
Most of the times i try to think as a buyer so I dont like this.
example:
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One great tv domains is listed on sedo,
someone gets interested(the average 'someone' that we are all looking for)
and bids, after some days he wins the domain.
Then he gets the domain in his account and after some weeks
he finds out its a premium for a high renewal fee.
He gets frustrated and emails SEDO about this,
sedo is forced to cancel the sale and give money back to the buyer.
Multiply this example 3 or 4 times and then you ll understand that
we can easily have our tv domains in a black hole where sedo and other like
websites will be hesitant when it comes to .tv plus the buyers or other
resellers wont have good faith on .tv domains listed for sale.
This change adds some more frustration regarding tv domains.
Here is my view on the changes in being able to check a name was Premium:
Over the past 2,3 months i have been bidding on 1,2 word quality .tv's in the $xxxx price range and each time i would check to see if it was a Premium and if so then how much would it cost.
99% of the time when i seen a domain was Premium then i crossed it off my list and looked elsewhere as i could not justify adding the Premium renewal Fees to the price paid for my domain.
I buy .tv's as a longterm Investment with the view of holding them for 3 years minium so i would need to add 3x renewal to any purchase price, since i buy for investment then price is key so many of the time the renewal fees made the total price to high.
Now that i cannot check if domains are premium then i have virtually stopped bidding on quality one word .tv's as i know 99% of them are premium but due to the crazy premium prices some of the domains i would think of as a $250 yr would actually turn out to be $5000 per year or similar.
I Cannot take the chance of buying a keyword .tv with the view that at worst it will be a $250 - $500 renewal and then it turns out to cost $2000 - $5000 (we all know Premium prices are all over the place and some average domains are on BIG renewal fees)
So now i have virtually given up buying aftermarket .tv's in the $xxxx range and have only been going for domains that are at best average and im 99.99% sure wont be premium (i mainly am going for 2 word .tv's now as theya re safer and better value i think)
So the ability to stop checking the renewal fees has put me off aftermarket buying in most occasions although i am not a major domainer so losing me wont hurt the market much if any.
** One good thing we have on our side to help find out renewals is this forum as many of the sellers are from this forum and have posted the renewal fee here at one time or another. For example last week i was bidding on a Geo that i knew was owned by somebody here, so i searched for "xxxxxx namepros .tv forum" and hey presto it pointed me to a thread where the owner revealed the renewal price when he 1st bought it and was aksing for appraisals ** (i am sure many of u guys do this so sorry if its been posted loads)
Anyway that is MY experience of how the change has affected me. Sorry for the 101 spelling mistakes that will surely be through this post but i dont have time to check over it.
I'm constantly looking to buy .tv names and really enjoyed using the premium renewal lookup tool as it was most helpful regarding a particular name of interest. The removal of the tool has now shifted my buying focus to "available premiums" versus secondary market purchases. Enom probably figured, "Hey, let's just list what's availabe and hide the prices on taken names and then watch the premiums fly off the shelves!" Which is exactly what's happening right now...
CCD
Last edited by CashCowDomains : 08-24-2007 at 08:32 PM.
__________________ ~ A rising tide lifts all boats.
~ You won't get anywhere... if you don't start somewhere.
~ When it is dark enough... you can see stars.
Not exposing the renewal price on a premium is bad business and bad for any business plan, regardless of what side of the .tv game you are on, be it investment or development of a domain name. Transparency in the domain business is what is needed in order for the domain industry to grow, regardless of what domain extension you are vested in, as yearly registration pricing structure should be laid out in order for individuals to properly appraise the domain investment, along with all other name criteria.
This is already such a highly subjective, speculative business, so not knowing basic yearly pricing structure on a name hurts the perceived market value of that name because a buyer is unable to compare a domain to other prices on other available names.
For example, when you put up a home or piece of real estate for sale, the potential buyer steps in and is able to appraise the property and all the fixed costs and one time costs associated with that particular piece of real estate.
Registration fee's in some ways are similar to that of paying taxes on a piece of property, except you are essentially paying a yearly tax/fee on the domain name.
If i'm going in to purchase a home, I have a right to know all the costs and variables associated with that property in order for me to make an assessment on whether or not im going to make the purchase, and if it the cost is of value to me. It does not matter if I'm going to build the house to live there, or rent it out, demolish it etc...
Not knowing the registration fee's on a name hurts potential sales and hurts resale growth. It hurts the market even from a developer standpoint, who chooses to build a site, as that developer wants to build a website with a high value and when in the future the overall website is appraised, the value of the domain name used has to be taken into account, and the registration fee of the name has to be part of any realistic appraisal.
Some homes have higher taxes than others, as do some domain names, and we wont go into the pricing structure on .tv premiums, as that has been discussed before and is a separate discussion entirely. The point is the names have various fee's which are like a tax and this needs to be disclosed to the market place.
Although I personally believe .TV is a developers game, when you register a name for development, it is still an investment even if you have no plans to resell. If that were not the case, then and name-name-name.tv would be sufficient for your development strategy, which of course is ridiculous as anyone wants to get the best name they can for any project.
Therefore, in order for .tv to continue to be successful, premium pricing should be disclosed as any buyer would be very upset if finding out after a purchase that a name had a higher yearly fee. Even if ENOM intends for this to be a purely development game, the fact is, not every name is going to be developed right away, and if confusion in the market place continues on premium pricing, than that could deter developers from developing in that extension, which could overall hurt the growth of .tv
__________________ Maine.TVWrestle.TV Farts.TVMINDWRECKER.TV
If Dot Com is King then Dot TV will be the Queen, and I would rather be caught making out with the Queen...
Someone has informed me that apparently you can call up Demand Media and or ENOM and ask what the renewal pricing is. Nothing against ENOM but any time I have called them the hold time is to long.
Again, even with this possible phone call option, I think this lack of transparency hurts the market place for .TV
__________________ Maine.TVWrestle.TV Farts.TVMINDWRECKER.TV
If Dot Com is King then Dot TV will be the Queen, and I would rather be caught making out with the Queen...
Here's a theory, What if Verisign was looking to eliminate the "premium" renewal policy all together? The first step they'd take, IMO, would be to eliminate all the history of premium costs by removing this feature.
I think they should abandon premium pricing altogether. At a bare minimum the information should be included in a WHOIS query performed at eNom.
If you look at some of the names they set aside as so-called "Premium Names" (especially some of the lower-priced Adult domains), it makes you wonder what these guys were smoking.
__________________ MicroGuy.net - the bumbling misadventures of an aging domainer. ()
As much as everyone else and I would like that to happen, I seriously doubt they would actually eliminate their cashcow.
On the contrary, I have a feeling premium renewal will be here to stay for a long long time cause obviously regardless of the high prices, people are actually still willingly paying.
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First off the domain renewal fee was never available to see for the first 8 years, when ENOM took over the retail side they had this look see at renewal fees it was not done on purpose it was how everything was set up for new registrations you could see the fee and they did not take out domains already registered so you could see.
I guess people like Igal or Elequa do not want the world knowing they have $25 renewals on a domain like xxx.tv or travel.tv
Lastly PREMIUM PRICING not going away it was the SOLE reason Verisign spent $45 Million for the DOT TV company. PREMIUM PRICING was why Jason Chapnik was interested in .tv and the reason why IDEALAB was interested. CHARGING Premium prices was the number one reason why everyone who has ever been involved with .tv was interested in .tv, not because it was cool or videos go better on a .tv. PREMIUM PRICING the cornerstone of all interest in the .tv extension. The nation of Tuvalu does not want $10 domains either.
Lastly before anyone says oh well .tv unique and that is wrong for premium pricing, most island nations and smaller countries have more expensive pricing and it is not just on a "PREMIUM" but any.
Check out .IM isle of mann they go from $80 to xxx for 1 and 2 character.
.ki on idotz.net any domain is $1295 for a great name like tv.ki or dsjdajd.ki
.nf $189.99
.mu $89.99
.md $149
.io $79.99
Whether I personally agree with the actual prices we have to pay for premiums is another thing!
but...
I dont think it is anyones business as to what I own or what I pay unless I make it their business, mine is not a publicly listed company that has regulations requiring regular disclosures and earnings releases.
Keep the power of disclosure in the hands of the buyers/owners who make the decision to register and take the risk of registering.
Investors will invest in a good opportunity if it offers a chance to make money, the market in the end will always decide the value of any given investment, if premiums are too expensive and the ROI isnt there then they will sit on the rack, if however any investor sees value then they will be regged,
Having said all that I think in the interests of good faith all names should be required to have their renewal rates disclosed to the buyer before the transaction takes place how you regulate this and stop "hoax " buyers/bidders I dont know but it is only fair that a true buyer knows the full costs involved in what they are purchasing....
Last edited by meeks : 10-06-2007 at 05:32 AM.
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