"Is the Domain Aftermarket Corrupt?"

Ms Domainer · 02-10-2010, 02:53 AM

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On my blog MsDomainer [dot] com (which is currently somewhat inactive), I just received the following comment on "Is the Domain Aftermarket Corrupt?" a October 7, 2007, post. In that post, I questioned the ethics of the domain aftermarket and how domains are captured and sold. My view now is slightly different than it was back then, although the halvarez scandal hasn't helped. I don't want to include the link here because it might appear that I'm trying to self promote my blog. Besides, due to my current circumstances, I haven't been updating much lately.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/domain-name-discussion/638980-is-the-domain-aftermarket-corrupt.html

Offended, I was about to hit the "reject" button, but, then, I got to thinking, why censor what most people outside of domaining are really thinking?

You are all scum so you deserve whatever reaming you get by the other sharks in the fetid pool of murk you swim in. Purchasing any domain without the intention of starting a valid enterprise under that name and putting a website online at that address, is sleazy on par with real estate scams, spammers, and pyramid-scheme lowlifes.

I realize that this is one view who happened upon my blog. But I do think that outside this industry, we ARE considered scum.

My question to all: how might this industry go about changing this negative viewpoint of legitimate domaining?

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bmugford · 02-10-2010, 03:00 AM

Legitimate domainers need to take a harder stance against true cybersquatters. There is a big difference between dealing in generics and brandables than clear TM domains.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

I also wish companies like GoDaddy.com would spend some money explaining the actual benefits of owning a domain name. The cute SB Ads might have worked to launch GD as a brand, but it is time to grow up. These companies with massive budgets need to step up and bring an understanding of the domain market to a wider audience.

It also doesn't help that drop sites like NJ/Pool prominently feature obvious TM issue domains on their main page.

Then you have people who register and ask for appraisals on domains like

MichaelJacksonDeathPhotos.com

If you are a legitimate domainer, it is basically the same thing as owning undeveloped lots that are ready to be built on. It is a big difference than the shady tactics that many people use.

This whole thing reminds me of an argument the other day a friend had with an end user for a product generic. He basically said something like "You are paying $7/year, why should I pay $500". Many end users don't understand the benefits of owning relevant domains.

Brad

wwwweb · 02-10-2010, 04:18 AM

purchasing a generic domain name without the intention of building a website, same as purchasing a piece of land without the intention of building a house? what does it matter owners choice.

**enlytend** · 02-10-2010, 04:49 AM

I've posted about domaining's image problems (and the repercussions they could have on our industry as a whole!) numerous times, here and elsewhere. How to fix it?

1) Do the right thing, Stop the unethical behavior Typosquats, DELIBERATE tm infringement, registering tragedy domains to sell, etc. ... Don't do it, don't condone it, actively speak out against it.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

This goes for the registrars too!

2) A Little PR Wouldn't Hurt. - Are you a domainer doing something to make the world a better place? Involved in your community? Write a press release. Donate some domains to a charity? Write a press release. Do something to clean up the industry? Write a press release.

Here's another thought - everyone's developing domains these days, right?

3) Develop a domain for a good cause. Devote at least one domain out of your portfolio to helping others. And don't stick Adsense all over it!

Domainer "Do Some Good" Challenge:
Putting my money where my mouth is, I have several domains in my portfolio that I registered with the above intent but never got around to it. I'm going to get something online on one of them by the end of this month. No advertising, a purely not-for-profit resource site. You heard it here.

Calling all you folks who can churn out minisites in less time than it takes to run down an iPod battery - Anyone with me?

bmugford · 02-10-2010, 05:08 AM

I have donated several domains to charity over the last couple years, especially Medical related terms (diseases) to non profits or support groups as well as animal rescue related terms. However, in my opinion a press release on a donation is a little tacky.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

It reminds me of a couple years ago when some company donated $10,000 in bottled water during Katrina, then spent like $10M promoting it.

Brad

Originally Posted by enlytend

2) A Little PR Wouldn't Hurt. Donate some domains to a charity?

abc3200 · 02-10-2010, 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by wwwweb

purchasing a generic domain name without the intention of building a website, same as purchasing a piece of land without the intention of building a house? what does it matter owners choice.

This is exactly my opinion. While there are some differences between domaining and real estate investing, they are fundamentally the same in my opinion. One of the primary differences, and one that contributes largely to a negative view of domaining, is the fact that you need a lot more money to invest in real estate. Domaining is open to anyone. I think that is one of the great things about domaining, but, of course, those in power already don't like when opportunities are available to the masses.

**enlytend** · 02-10-2010, 05:30 AM

Quote:

I have donated several domains to charity over the last couple years, especially Medical related terms (diseases) to non profits or support groups as well as animal rescue related terms. However, in my opinion a press release on a donation is a little tacky.

It is ... somewhat
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

I'm not talking a big paid advertising campaign - just getting some positive information out to counteract the negative perceptions. Doesn't have to be a formal press release - any way to get the message out will do, little by little.

Ms Domainer · 02-10-2010, 05:51 AM

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Another idea:

Create a group that adheres to a domaining code of ethics, to be developed by that group and voted upon. If you agree, then the annual Membership fee would be nominal but adherence to the code would be strict. Being a member would tell the outside world and the industry that you are an ethical domainer who can be trusted.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

This would NOT be another ICA, whose mission had little to do with ethics but more with protecting the special interests of the rich domainer. This code of ethics group would be more interested in promoting and protecting the good name of domainers, via their deeds when conducting business and their charity events.

Figuring out that ethical code could be contentious, though I would say a good start would be to begin with the legalities and then decide what gray areas are too gray to be acceptable (recognizing that what is legal is not always ethical. Conversely, what is ethical is not always legal).

Thoughts?

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**enlytend** · 02-10-2010, 06:54 AM

I like it.

But I agree - working out the details would be very difficult. I've thought this over a few times myself and have come up against the same problem. Even something seemingly black-and-white like trademarks - for example, if it's a descriptive mark and you don't solicit the mark owner or compete in the same class of goods and services there's nothing illegal OR unethical about that.

Besides, everyone thinks their "gray" area is a lighter shade of gray than the next person's

.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

One possibility might be to have a simple "core" set of values and a viewable individual "policies" profile for each member, with additional details about that member's business / domaining practices. Not as things to be enforced, but to provide consumers with information and disclosure.

???

ComKid · 02-10-2010, 07:40 AM

I believe, in addition, we need more quality online venues to promote the market of domain names as well as changes with ICANN regulations for preventative TM registrations.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

There are plenty of news sources, websites, blogs and feeds ect..... but there are no peer forces to educate and promote domaining in ways that reflects the true nature of this remarkable industry. There is no media direction like you see with buying and selling stocks or real estate.... like you see in those markets.

This industry needs to stand back and take a fresh look at the direction it should be moving in and invest in new ways to promote these properties. There are handfuls of experts in this industry but not many on par with the professionalism of other commodity markets or the real estate markets from what I can see.

DubDubDubDot · 02-10-2010, 08:05 AM

First of all, more domainers need to realize the true reasons why the domain community it is looked down upon.

Nobody except those directly affected care if domainers register a TM or a typo or a tragedy domain, yet these kind of threads always cite these activities as being the image problem. They aren't.

What non-domainers do care about (and what makes developers want to toss every domainer off a bridge) is wanting a domain that isn't really all that great, yet the domainer won't sell it for less than $1,500. That sort of thing is what has prevented the domain aftermarket from becoming legitimate.

Mark my words.... We are headed down a path where WIPO is going to start taking domains away based solely on them being owned by a domainer with no intentions to develop them. They might not cite that as the reason for transfer, but they will pull some other reason out of their hat. There have already been some recent cases where it sure looked like this may have been the case.

fm1234 · 02-10-2010, 08:18 AM

There are people who just like to criticise. There are people who like to criticise, but don't like to research the facts beforehand.

Some people think all salesmen are scum. Some people think certain types of salesmen (insurance, or cars, or real estate, or whatever) are scum. Some people think contractors are all sleazy, all lawyers chase ambulances, landscapers are all Mexican and plumbers all have exposed ass cracks. People who want to wallow in their own ignorance are more than welcome to do so.

As far as whether or not WIPO could conceivably start taking away domains based on presumptive intent, I bet my lawyer (and anybody else in this industry's lawyer) would love to be the lead counsel on the class action lawsuit to stop that. There's no basis in legality (hell, no basis in reality) for them to successfully do something like that. If there was, then the real estate, gemstone, printing and other markets are all in deep trouble, because "failure to intend" applies to all of them and more.

????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

Frank

**enlytend** · 02-10-2010, 08:30 AM

Quote:

What non-domainers do care about (and what makes developers want to toss every domainer off a bridge) is wanting a domain that isn't really all that great, yet the domainer won't sell it for less than $1,500. That sort of thing is what has prevented the domain aftermarket from becoming legitimate.

Agree 100%. And being a developer first and domainer second, I've cursed those out a few times myself. (If I make a respectable offer for a domain and you come back with an outrageous price, you'd better have other buyers knocking at your door or really want to keep it, because it's never gonna happen.).
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

But I believe the other factors still contribute to the image problem because of the media attention they attract.

Ms Domainer · 02-10-2010, 09:03 AM

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I can own an acre in the dumpiest part of town, but if someone else wants it bad enough (for example, for a parking lot), I can ask whatever I want, but the potential buyer can simply refuse and find another plot of land.

Asking and getting are two different things, and, soon enough, if the owner wants to sell, he/she will have to temper his/her expectations.

On the other hand, perhaps the seller is more interested in holding with the hope that some private investors are planning to renew the area with tony shops, hotels, and business.

He/she has every right to hold, and no one seems to question that business model.

Why should it be any different for domaining? True, we do deal in intangible assets. One can see, feel, taste, smell, and hear a plot of land to determine its desireability by noting the part of town and other tangible factors. It doesn't help that "words" are simply characters that have been designated with certain meanings--they don't "bling" on your ring finger, you can't eat them, and you can't build your dream house on them (at least not literally). So ordinary people just don't see the value in certain words. To them, dictionary words are ordinary pieces of language, just for the purpose of communicating with each other.

But we need to educate the public and business world that garnering the best possible keyword(s) for one's domain should be considered as a significant acquisition, which will then translate into a major asset.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

I do believe that our image is seriously in the dump; we can't change ICANN, and we can't change the auction platforms, but we can change the way that others see us by accepting some ethical standards to the way we do business and rejecting those "domainers" who would cybersquat on someone else's brand, etc.

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fm1234 · 02-10-2010, 09:08 AM

posted by enlytend:

Quote:

[b]posted by DubDubDubDot:
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

Quote:

What non-domainers do care about (and what makes developers want to toss every domainer off a bridge) is wanting a domain that isn't really all that great, yet the domainer won't sell it for less than $1,500. That sort of thing is what has prevented the domain aftermarket from becoming legitimate.

Agree 100%. And being a developer first and domainer second, I've cursed those out a few times myself. (If I make a respectable offer for a domain and you come back with an outrageous price, you'd better have other buyers knocking at your door or really want to keep it, because it's never gonna happen.).

Why? Of all attitudes about domainers this is the one that baffles me the most. People who own a given thing can ask whatever they want for it. Outrageous asking prices are seen in all kinds of markets -- real estate, collectibles of any kind, gemstones, often in talent contracts (sports, actors, whatever.) Why are domainers in particular to be singled out as bad guys for asking a particular amount of money for a domain?

Don't get me wrong; I see prices being asked for domains and generally laugh until I pee a little. But the idea of making some kind of moral judgement on a person over asking price just seems absurd to me.

I even have a real-life domainer in mind ... he has the .com of a domain for which I have had the .net for two years now. I've checked and checked and checked and his asking price has stayed firm at $30,000 for at least three years. Nothing but a parking page there, and it can't possibly be getting much natural traffic (and he refuses to discuss traffic or rev -- it's $30,000 take it or leave it.) Now, what this guy is, is an incompetent who does not make money at domaining. What he is not, is a bad human being who is bringing down this industry. He's just a dumbass, like anybody else who clings to a misinformed idea of value of a given thing. But it's his domain and he can do what he wants.

Frank

**enlytend** · 02-10-2010, 09:32 AM

Just to clarify, what I was agreeing with was this:

Quote:

What non-domainers do care about (and what makes developers want to toss every domainer off a bridge) is wanting a domain that isn't really all that great, yet the domainer won't sell it for less than $1,500.

.... not commenting on the domainer's right to set whatever price they want. Lots of domainers put a lot of time and effort into registering and holding on to every decent domain they can think of - Developers get frustrated when they do domain searches for a new project and find every name THEY think up is parked. Parked to a non-domainer = "not being used".
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

Perfectly OK for the registrant to ask whatever they want, but nonetheless frustrating to a developer.

Carlton · 02-10-2010, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Ms Domainer

On my blog MsDomainer [dot] com (which is currently somewhat inactive), I just received the following comment on "Is the Domain Aftermarket Corrupt?" a October 7, 2007, post. In that post, I questioned the ethics of the domain aftermarket and how domains are captured and sold. My view now is slightly different than it was back then, although the halvarez scandal hasn't helped. I don't want to include the link here because it might appear that I'm trying to self promote my blog. Besides, due to my current circumstances, I haven't been updating much lately.

Offended, I was about to hit the "reject" button, but, then, I got to thinking, why censor what most people outside of domaining are really thinking?

You are all scum so you deserve whatever reaming you get by the other sharks in the fetid pool of murk you swim in. Purchasing any domain without the intention of starting a valid enterprise under that name and putting a website online at that address, is sleazy on par with real estate scams, spammers, and pyramid-scheme lowlifes.

I realize that this is one view who happened upon my blog. But I do think that outside this industry, we ARE considered scum.

My question to all: how might this industry go about changing this negative viewpoint of legitimate domaining?

This abusive comment signals you are dealing with someone who is not rational and certainly emotionally immature. He/she is not capable of holding a productive conversation. Personally, I would NOT post such comments to my blog.

Most domainers are quite happy to discuss opportunities and even dabate interesting topics with a wide range of people. But there are several prerequisites -> can make valid points, will concede to a better point, have no damaging agenda to push forward, can adopt a civil tone.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

Unfortunately, the fellow quoted above is the epitome of the "low life" he claims to despise. Extremely irrational, no credibility, blindly attacking, and unable to discern justified anger from unjustified.

Personally, I suggest saving your time and intelligence for those who are worthy of it! Just my opinion.

***SpareDomains*** · 02-10-2010, 11:45 AM

Negative opinions of domainers are usually from developers that were late to the game and don't have a pot to piss in so they would rather talk trash then provide a reason why if they are such good developers and so successful with their development they can't afford a good domain. Toyota has built one of the most reliable cars for years and one little brake problem and everyone attacks them. When you are on top of anything domains, cars, music, acting etc... people below you will make negative comments at the slightest slip because they are so unhappy with their own life which I call jealousy fueled hate. If your domains are generic and not trademarked there is nothing wrong with just parking them as that is your business and anyone who thinks different needs to find their own business. I still get over $10 clicks on some parked domains and I won't develop them if I have no interest in the category and the answer of develop every domain you own is flawed as development in the wrong hands is not good development. Domainers need to team up with the powerhouses that exist like Sedo and Fabulous & Afternic both have domain distribution networks which get your domains listed for sale across multiple sites, godaddy has free premium listings as well so the options to get your domains in front of the end user public that will pay and not whine are there. Developers that wish to whine need to pick an alternate domain or email the domain owner and strike a partnership deal if they can't afford the domain and they have to have it. I have hundreds of domains parked and I have a good handful of fully developed sites and a few hundred mini sites as well so I mix it up a bit as I think some form of development even if a mini site is a nice defensive measure to use for your best domains. It's hard to get a successful organized domainer association so until that happens I would say keep some cash in the bank so you can make examples out of people that wish to test you if you are holding premium domains. Don't debate with people that don't get it spend that time optimizing your parked domains, developing your mini sites, developing your fully devloped sites and most importantly getting your domains listed for sale in the channels that exist for maximum end user sales potential.

DubDubDubDot · 02-10-2010, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by fm1234

Why are domainers in particular to be singled out as bad guys for asking a particular amount of money for a domain?

Because outside of domaining, holding many domains for the sole purpose of resale -- especially when they were purchased for regfee -- is not considered legitimate domain ownership by many.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

And I think one reason for this is that only domainers consider domains to be internet real-estate. You can own land next to a busy highway and it becomes an "If you build it they will come." scenario because the traffic is right there, but this holds true for only a tiny percentage of domains. The rest require significant development to see any real traffic. So developers look at domains more so as the sign on the store, and they see the "$#@!& domainer" holding their desired brand at bay for a price that far exceeds what the domain is worth to the project.

Now obviously what I'm saying here does not apply to anyone's views of resellers of certified premium domains. Everyone understands why they sell for a lot of money.

If a domainer wants to think "My domain, I'll charge what I want.", that is fine (even I am guilty of it at times). You can do that. Just don't play dumb and blame it on TM registrations or something when domainers don't get any respect.

sdsinc · 02-10-2010, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Ms Domainer

...

I realize that this is one view who happened upon my blog. But I do think that outside this industry, we ARE considered scum.

My question to all: how might this industry go about changing this negative viewpoint of legitimate domaining?

*

When you are successful, or own something that other people covet, you will always be the envy of jealous people.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

PS: I would not be surprised if this pissing comment came from a MFA mass producer, you know somebody that definitely adds value to the Internet

The sad thing is, many people think the same.
For many (ignorant) webmasters, SEOers, domainers are among the top web nuisances - even ahead of spammers.
Of course it's not rational but people are not rational, that's why the world is crazy

***SpareDomains*** · 02-10-2010, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot

Because outside of domaining, holding many domains for the sole purpose of resale -- especially when they were purchased for regfee -- is not considered legitimate domain ownership by many.

my best end user sales were all purchased at reg fee or dropped domains picked up at reg fee so as long as the end users continue to buy them it finances the business model, if you are making consistent end user sales you are doing something right and the price you paid doesn't matter as a good domain is a good domain and while the whiners were out having fun many of us have sacrificed our time to stay up late and acquire these strong domains so it's only fair to be compensated for your time or compensated for the activities you missed out on by working all night, luckily for every whiner there is a end user that will pay a reasonable price, when I can buy 1 share of a stock for $7 and turn it into 1-10k I'll quit domaining but until that is possible domaining produces a greater return than I can find anywhere else and the opinions of the many no money whiners doesn't slow down my progress at all. Get your domains in all the major distribution channels that target end users and make sales and all the rest is just noise to ignore.

musicplace.co.nr · 02-10-2010, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by bmugford

If you are a legitimate domainer, it is basically the same thing as owning undeveloped lots that are ready to be built on. It is a big difference than the shady tactics that many people use.

This whole thing reminds me of an argument the other day a friend had with an end user for a product generic. He basically said something like "You are paying $7/year, why should I pay $500". Many end users don't understand the benefits of owning relevant domains.

Brad

I think end users perfectly understand the benefits of owning a relevant domain. The only thing your quote from some guy that 'You are paying $7/year, why should I pay $500' proves is that end users don't understand why they should have to pay 7,142% of the amount that you are spending to maintain the domain (probably more when you take into account any earning on that domain).

I agree that a person selling anything is free to ask whatever price they want, but when a seller of something is asking for that much mark up, it's never going to look good.

Let me put it this way, let's say (and I wish this were true) I had a crap load of money. Everytime there was a land release or house for sale within 2 hours drive of where you live, I buy it. Sooner or later, you have a couple of kids or whatever and need a bigger house, or maybe something happens and you need to live closer to public transport or a hospital. You come to me and say hey... how much for that house there. My reply is.... I paid $500,000 for that house... you can have it for $35.7 million - take it or leave it. Are you going to pay that much?

And thats what an end users problem is. You have a domain that probably only has speculative value until it is developed, yet you mark the price up ridiculously high in the hope that sooner or later someone will give in and pay you. It's called highway robbery.

The reality is that if you sit back and say this is my price - take it or leave it - you will no doubt still get a few 'bites', but as a domainer your job is to on-sell domains, right?

So is it really the end user who has the lack of understanding? Or is it the domainer who isn't 'selling' the domain properly? The domainer (as a salesperson) needs to convince the end user that they need a domain, that this is the one for them, and that they should be buying it at this price. If you're having 'problems' with end users, then maybe its time that you brushed up on your sales skills, re-evaluated the domains you're trying to sell, re-thought your prices or moved on to another industry. Because when push comes to shove, in the sales world, if someone inquires about your product, thats usually a definite sale. People don't waste their time inquiring about something that they don't want.

snoop · 02-10-2010, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Ms Domainer

I realize that this is one view who happened upon my blog. But I do think that outside this industry, we ARE considered scum.

My question to all: how might this industry go about changing this negative viewpoint of legitimate domaining?

I think this is a commonly held view by tech type people. I think the industry does have a fair degree of negative perception in the outside community generally though. Perhaps comparable to a used car salesmen or lawyers. You could also compare to any other speculative activity, are land hoarders perceived well? How about people who speculate on financial markets?

What can be done, honestly I don't think much. The perception is not completely undeserved.

defaultuser · 02-10-2010, 10:31 PM

People hate car salesman. People hate the porn industry. People hate the McFatty fast food chains. People hate domainers. WGaF?

You want to know why people hate domainers ? Because every frackin search for something useful ends up dumping you on some pos parked page, or worse, some pos mini-site that looks like its trying to provide information but is nothing more than stolen text, stolen pictures with annoying ads. I've seen VERY few mini-sites with original content. I've seen many that have the same text "I used to do this but now I do that... " really? You're the magic multiplying personality.

Summary: Most domainers INHIBIT the ability to get to USEFUL information.

It's passive spamming. You can't defend it morally or ethically.

I also don't think you need to; however, the opinion that others hold is a result. Sure it's your right to do whatever you want. It's your right to justify it however you like. But the results of the endevors of millions is the setting of public perception. But again, WGaF?

The interesting thing is that companies/products are now deliberately creating names that are "nonsense"or meaningless. I rarely visit any site that's "keyword".com because it's invariably a pos crap parked page. I'd go to fotogear.com before I'd go to camera.com... (I'd actually go to stevedigicams) and studies are showing that this is true of the millenials.

The industry is killing itself. Like all other industries.. there will be those who make $$$, those who lost $$$ and those who made $0. Within 2-3 years we'll see the first sign of the fractured internet based on the hidden web (started with url shorteners and clouds... and extrapolating from that).
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

Just an opinion. Full disclosure: I have lost about $24.

equity78 · 02-11-2010, 01:56 AM

Well first off Mickey Mouse its not a small world after all, its a very big world. A lot of people out there with agendas. The only people who care about what domainers think are domainers.

#1 I am still not sure that the term "Domainer" is a universal definition. Someone with 100 CVCV .info and Rick Schwartz are both domainers ? That's like saying Vanilla Ice and Frank Sinatra were both vocalists.

#2 There is no unity in this "industry" which I use loosely, I am not sure because I reg domains and you reg domains we are apart of the same team. There are people that reg adult names, I know plenty of people who despise adult and certainly do not want to be on the same team with those who own adult. Then there are those who own TM many big guys got their start there, legit now but used the tm to fuel the business.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

For what Ms.Domainer is looking for I think the DNOA tried that, the ICA is being reformed according to Michael Berkens from thedomains.com. But getting everyone to agree is hard.

This is a subjective business, not objective. Every domain is unique. Put 1 name or 100 names up for appraisal and you will get 100 out of 100 different opinions. No uniformity.

Price also plays into everything. I agree with the comment some get pissed that someone won't sell a domain that supposedly only the prospective buyer would buy. But it costs $8 to hold. For someone in the 100 to 500 domain range, they probably can hold for a long time. Someone with 10,000 names probably needs to move some names.

Take a look at this week's sales report. I bet someone probably offered $200 for Backpage.net and got turned down. They then said that low life scum, that was a fair offer, its a .net, no real commercial appeal. That low life scum sold it for $10,000 this week. What about Xtips.com someone probably offered $100 on SEDO and got no where. Thought what a low life, who would want besides me ? The low life sold it this week for $5840. Its not hard to turn down $1500 even though its a great return on $8, not if you see greater value.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980

And for the developer, if you have a great idea the domain will not hold it back, greatness is not held back by a domain. Made up names such as Xerox,Google,Ebay,Yahoo,Delicious,Facebook,Twitter ,etc........ Did not need the generic, Craig did not say I need classifieds.com, CraigsList worked fine.

I agree with some great comments here Carlton,SpareDomains,Fm1234. Carlton is right IMO that anyone with that comment is not rational. This is an easy business to get into, unlike real estate. So people at least think oh real estate the person is legit because they must have had money to get started in the business. I agree some prices are off the chart and not realistic, but people also say a pair of jeans should not cost $300 or a ball player should make $10,000,000 a year. Who says that ? Well lots of people, those who cannot afford $300 jeans, those who cannot play ball. Maybe its an intellectual elitist who feels they are superior to "some dumb jock" in their opinion. They cannot get over the fact they make $100,000 a year or less and he makes $10,000,000. Get over it, certain things have more perceived value, whether true or not. I certainly think a firemen does a hell of a lot more for society than a ball player, BUT society will not pay the firemen the salary they should get {IF THAT's POSSIBLE) considering the risk. So people will always complain about someone making money easier than them. When people hear a domainer brag, "I made $200 while I slept" some people think SON OF A B****. I work my ass off for $200.

Then you have the tech elitist, who either believe everything should be free or are pissed they did not reg everything in 94 when they were the only genius who knew about the Arpa Net.

For those that want all of this for free, I ask what do you for a living for free ? Will you build my computer and network for free ? Probably not.

I think you got to do what you think is right, I think a universal domainer group and agreeing on principle will not happen. I am not against it but I think too many opinions and it is a loosely knit industry that really only gets together for parties at the playboy mansion. Maybe there should be 400 domainers showing up at an ICANN meeting, stating their agenda. Maybe picket parking companies and Google demanding transparency.

I think a lot of people got into domaining because it seems "easy". Its not but people think it. They read DN Journal sales report and think wow.
There will always be the envious, the elitist and those trying to steal domains. Everyone needs to stay on top of their portfolio and have realistic expectations. Again IMO

02-10-2010, 02:53 AM	THREAD STARTER #1 (permalink)
Ms Domainer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,308	"Is the Domain Aftermarket Corrupt?" * On my blog MsDomainer [dot] com (which is currently somewhat inactive), I just received the following comment on "Is the Domain Aftermarket Corrupt?" a October 7, 2007, post. In that post, I questioned the ethics of the domain aftermarket and how domains are captured and sold. My view now is slightly different than it was back then, although the halvarez scandal hasn't helped. I don't want to include the link here because it might appear that I'm trying to self promote my blog. Besides, due to my current circumstances, I haven't been updating much lately. ????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/domain-name-discussion/638980-is-the-domain-aftermarket-corrupt.html Offended, I was about to hit the "reject" button, but, then, I got to thinking, why censor what most people outside of domaining are really thinking? You are all scum so you deserve whatever reaming you get by the other sharks in the fetid pool of murk you swim in. Purchasing any domain without the intention of starting a valid enterprise under that name and putting a website online at that address, is sleazy on par with real estate scams, spammers, and pyramid-scheme lowlifes. I realize that this is one view who happened upon my blog. But I do think that outside this industry, we ARE considered scum. My question to all: how might this industry go about changing this negative viewpoint of legitimate domaining? * __________________ Food for Thought So live that you wouldn't be ashamed to sell the family parrot to the town gossip.

02-10-2010, 03:00 AM	#2 (permalink)
bmugford www.DataCube.com Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 5,817	Legitimate domainers need to take a harder stance against true cybersquatters. There is a big difference between dealing in generics and brandables than clear TM domains. ????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980 I also wish companies like GoDaddy.com would spend some money explaining the actual benefits of owning a domain name. The cute SB Ads might have worked to launch GD as a brand, but it is time to grow up. These companies with massive budgets need to step up and bring an understanding of the domain market to a wider audience. It also doesn't help that drop sites like NJ/Pool prominently feature obvious TM issue domains on their main page. Then you have people who register and ask for appraisals on domains like MichaelJacksonDeathPhotos.com If you are a legitimate domainer, it is basically the same thing as owning undeveloped lots that are ready to be built on. It is a big difference than the shady tactics that many people use. This whole thing reminds me of an argument the other day a friend had with an end user for a product generic. He basically said something like "You are paying $7/year, why should I pay $500". Many end users don't understand the benefits of owning relevant domains. Brad __________________ DataCube.com - Buy and Sell Premium Domains Add Me on Facebook Last edited by bmugford; 02-10-2010 at 03:08 AM.

02-10-2010, 04:49 AM	#4 (permalink)
enlytend Forum Moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: USA Posts: 2,034 Follow @enlytend	I've posted about domaining's image problems (and the repercussions they could have on our industry as a whole!) numerous times, here and elsewhere. How to fix it? 1) Do the right thing, Stop the unethical behavior Typosquats, DELIBERATE tm infringement, registering tragedy domains to sell, etc. ... Don't do it, don't condone it, actively speak out against it. ????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980 This goes for the registrars too! 2) A Little PR Wouldn't Hurt. - Are you a domainer doing something to make the world a better place? Involved in your community? Write a press release. Donate some domains to a charity? Write a press release. Do something to clean up the industry? Write a press release. Here's another thought - everyone's developing domains these days, right? 3) Develop a domain for a good cause. Devote at least one domain out of your portfolio to helping others. And don't stick Adsense all over it! Domainer "Do Some Good" Challenge: Putting my money where my mouth is, I have several domains in my portfolio that I registered with the above intent but never got around to it. I'm going to get something online on one of them by the end of this month. No advertising, a purely not-for-profit resource site. You heard it here. Calling all you folks who can churn out minisites in less time than it takes to run down an iPod battery - Anyone with me? __________________ Enlytend Solutions - Internet marketing and web development, specializing in local search optimization Was my advice helpful? Please consider a small donation to the National Canine Cancer Foundation - a tax deductible 501(c)(3)that directly funds cancer research Last edited by enlytend; 02-10-2010 at 05:22 AM.

02-10-2010, 05:51 AM	THREAD STARTER #8 (permalink)
Ms Domainer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,308	* Another idea: Create a group that adheres to a domaining code of ethics, to be developed by that group and voted upon. If you agree, then the annual Membership fee would be nominal but adherence to the code would be strict. Being a member would tell the outside world and the industry that you are an ethical domainer who can be trusted. ????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980 This would NOT be another ICA, whose mission had little to do with ethics but more with protecting the special interests of the rich domainer. This code of ethics group would be more interested in promoting and protecting the good name of domainers, via their deeds when conducting business and their charity events. Figuring out that ethical code could be contentious, though I would say a good start would be to begin with the legalities and then decide what gray areas are too gray to be acceptable (recognizing that what is legal is not always ethical. Conversely, what is ethical is not always legal). Thoughts? * __________________ Food for Thought So live that you wouldn't be ashamed to sell the family parrot to the town gossip.

02-10-2010, 06:54 AM	#9 (permalink)
enlytend Forum Moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: USA Posts: 2,034 Follow @enlytend	I like it. But I agree - working out the details would be very difficult. I've thought this over a few times myself and have come up against the same problem. Even something seemingly black-and-white like trademarks - for example, if it's a descriptive mark and you don't solicit the mark owner or compete in the same class of goods and services there's nothing illegal OR unethical about that. Besides, everyone thinks their "gray" area is a lighter shade of gray than the next person's . ????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980 One possibility might be to have a simple "core" set of values and a viewable individual "policies" profile for each member, with additional details about that member's business / domaining practices. Not as things to be enforced, but to provide consumers with information and disclosure. ??? __________________ Enlytend Solutions - Internet marketing and web development, specializing in local search optimization Was my advice helpful? Please consider a small donation to the National Canine Cancer Foundation - a tax deductible 501(c)(3)that directly funds cancer research Last edited by enlytend; 02-10-2010 at 06:57 AM.

02-10-2010, 04:18 AM	#3 (permalink)
wwwweb NamePros Regular Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 955	purchasing a generic domain name without the intention of building a website, same as purchasing a piece of land without the intention of building a house? what does it matter owners choice.

02-10-2010, 07:40 AM	#10 (permalink)
ComKid NamePros Regular Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 424 Follow @ComKind	I believe, in addition, we need more quality online venues to promote the market of domain names as well as changes with ICANN regulations for preventative TM registrations. ????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980 There are plenty of news sources, websites, blogs and feeds ect..... but there are no peer forces to educate and promote domaining in ways that reflects the true nature of this remarkable industry. There is no media direction like you see with buying and selling stocks or real estate.... like you see in those markets. This industry needs to stand back and take a fresh look at the direction it should be moving in and invest in new ways to promote these properties. There are handfuls of experts in this industry but not many on par with the professionalism of other commodity markets or the real estate markets from what I can see. Last edited by ComKid; 02-10-2010 at 07:52 AM.

02-10-2010, 08:05 AM	#11 (permalink)
DubDubDubDot Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,592	First of all, more domainers need to realize the true reasons why the domain community it is looked down upon. Nobody except those directly affected care if domainers register a TM or a typo or a tragedy domain, yet these kind of threads always cite these activities as being the image problem. They aren't. What non-domainers do care about (and what makes developers want to toss every domainer off a bridge) is wanting a domain that isn't really all that great, yet the domainer won't sell it for less than $1,500. That sort of thing is what has prevented the domain aftermarket from becoming legitimate. Mark my words.... We are headed down a path where WIPO is going to start taking domains away based solely on them being owned by a domainer with no intentions to develop them. They might not cite that as the reason for transfer, but they will pull some other reason out of their hat. There have already been some recent cases where it sure looked like this may have been the case.

02-10-2010, 08:18 AM	#12 (permalink)
fm1234 NamePros Regular Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 476	There are people who just like to criticise. There are people who like to criticise, but don't like to research the facts beforehand. Some people think all salesmen are scum. Some people think certain types of salesmen (insurance, or cars, or real estate, or whatever) are scum. Some people think contractors are all sleazy, all lawyers chase ambulances, landscapers are all Mexican and plumbers all have exposed ass cracks. People who want to wallow in their own ignorance are more than welcome to do so. As far as whether or not WIPO could conceivably start taking away domains based on presumptive intent, I bet my lawyer (and anybody else in this industry's lawyer) would love to be the lead counsel on the class action lawsuit to stop that. There's no basis in legality (hell, no basis in reality) for them to successfully do something like that. If there was, then the real estate, gemstone, printing and other markets are all in deep trouble, because "failure to intend" applies to all of them and more. ????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980 Frank

02-10-2010, 09:03 AM	THREAD STARTER #14 (permalink)
Ms Domainer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,308	* I can own an acre in the dumpiest part of town, but if someone else wants it bad enough (for example, for a parking lot), I can ask whatever I want, but the potential buyer can simply refuse and find another plot of land. Asking and getting are two different things, and, soon enough, if the owner wants to sell, he/she will have to temper his/her expectations. On the other hand, perhaps the seller is more interested in holding with the hope that some private investors are planning to renew the area with tony shops, hotels, and business. He/she has every right to hold, and no one seems to question that business model. Why should it be any different for domaining? True, we do deal in intangible assets. One can see, feel, taste, smell, and hear a plot of land to determine its desireability by noting the part of town and other tangible factors. It doesn't help that "words" are simply characters that have been designated with certain meanings--they don't "bling" on your ring finger, you can't eat them, and you can't build your dream house on them (at least not literally). So ordinary people just don't see the value in certain words. To them, dictionary words are ordinary pieces of language, just for the purpose of communicating with each other. But we need to educate the public and business world that garnering the best possible keyword(s) for one's domain should be considered as a significant acquisition, which will then translate into a major asset. ????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980 I do believe that our image is seriously in the dump; we can't change ICANN, and we can't change the auction platforms, but we can change the way that others see us by accepting some ethical standards to the way we do business and rejecting those "domainers" who would cybersquat on someone else's brand, etc. * __________________ Food for Thought So live that you wouldn't be ashamed to sell the family parrot to the town gossip. Last edited by Ms Domainer; 02-10-2010 at 02:01 PM.

02-10-2010, 11:45 AM	#18 (permalink)
*SpareDomains* Business Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 2,450	Negative opinions of domainers are usually from developers that were late to the game and don't have a pot to piss in so they would rather talk trash then provide a reason why if they are such good developers and so successful with their development they can't afford a good domain. Toyota has built one of the most reliable cars for years and one little brake problem and everyone attacks them. When you are on top of anything domains, cars, music, acting etc... people below you will make negative comments at the slightest slip because they are so unhappy with their own life which I call jealousy fueled hate. If your domains are generic and not trademarked there is nothing wrong with just parking them as that is your business and anyone who thinks different needs to find their own business. I still get over $10 clicks on some parked domains and I won't develop them if I have no interest in the category and the answer of develop every domain you own is flawed as development in the wrong hands is not good development. Domainers need to team up with the powerhouses that exist like Sedo and Fabulous & Afternic both have domain distribution networks which get your domains listed for sale across multiple sites, godaddy has free premium listings as well so the options to get your domains in front of the end user public that will pay and not whine are there. Developers that wish to whine need to pick an alternate domain or email the domain owner and strike a partnership deal if they can't afford the domain and they have to have it. I have hundreds of domains parked and I have a good handful of fully developed sites and a few hundred mini sites as well so I mix it up a bit as I think some form of development even if a mini site is a nice defensive measure to use for your best domains. It's hard to get a successful organized domainer association so until that happens I would say keep some cash in the bank so you can make examples out of people that wish to test you if you are holding premium domains. Don't debate with people that don't get it spend that time optimizing your parked domains, developing your mini sites, developing your fully devloped sites and most importantly getting your domains listed for sale in the channels that exist for maximum end user sales potential.

02-10-2010, 10:31 PM	#24 (permalink)
defaultuser Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 4,218	People hate car salesman. People hate the porn industry. People hate the McFatty fast food chains. People hate domainers. WGaF? You want to know why people hate domainers ? Because every frackin search for something useful ends up dumping you on some pos parked page, or worse, some pos mini-site that looks like its trying to provide information but is nothing more than stolen text, stolen pictures with annoying ads. I've seen VERY few mini-sites with original content. I've seen many that have the same text "I used to do this but now I do that... " really? You're the magic multiplying personality. Summary: Most domainers INHIBIT the ability to get to USEFUL information. It's passive spamming. You can't defend it morally or ethically. I also don't think you need to; however, the opinion that others hold is a result. Sure it's your right to do whatever you want. It's your right to justify it however you like. But the results of the endevors of millions is the setting of public perception. But again, WGaF? The interesting thing is that companies/products are now deliberately creating names that are "nonsense"or meaningless. I rarely visit any site that's "keyword".com because it's invariably a pos crap parked page. I'd go to fotogear.com before I'd go to camera.com... (I'd actually go to stevedigicams) and studies are showing that this is true of the millenials. The industry is killing itself. Like all other industries.. there will be those who make $$$, those who lost $$$ and those who made $0. Within 2-3 years we'll see the first sign of the fractured internet based on the hidden web (started with url shorteners and clouds... and extrapolating from that). ????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980 Just an opinion. Full disclosure: I have lost about $24.

02-11-2010, 01:56 AM	#25 (permalink)
equity78 NamePros Expert Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 7,567	Well first off Mickey Mouse its not a small world after all, its a very big world. A lot of people out there with agendas. The only people who care about what domainers think are domainers. #1 I am still not sure that the term "Domainer" is a universal definition. Someone with 100 CVCV .info and Rick Schwartz are both domainers ? That's like saying Vanilla Ice and Frank Sinatra were both vocalists. #2 There is no unity in this "industry" which I use loosely, I am not sure because I reg domains and you reg domains we are apart of the same team. There are people that reg adult names, I know plenty of people who despise adult and certainly do not want to be on the same team with those who own adult. Then there are those who own TM many big guys got their start there, legit now but used the tm to fuel the business. ????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980 For what Ms.Domainer is looking for I think the DNOA tried that, the ICA is being reformed according to Michael Berkens from thedomains.com. But getting everyone to agree is hard. This is a subjective business, not objective. Every domain is unique. Put 1 name or 100 names up for appraisal and you will get 100 out of 100 different opinions. No uniformity. Price also plays into everything. I agree with the comment some get pissed that someone won't sell a domain that supposedly only the prospective buyer would buy. But it costs $8 to hold. For someone in the 100 to 500 domain range, they probably can hold for a long time. Someone with 10,000 names probably needs to move some names. Take a look at this week's sales report. I bet someone probably offered $200 for Backpage.net and got turned down. They then said that low life scum, that was a fair offer, its a .net, no real commercial appeal. That low life scum sold it for $10,000 this week. What about Xtips.com someone probably offered $100 on SEDO and got no where. Thought what a low life, who would want besides me ? The low life sold it this week for $5840. Its not hard to turn down $1500 even though its a great return on $8, not if you see greater value. ????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=638980 And for the developer, if you have a great idea the domain will not hold it back, greatness is not held back by a domain. Made up names such as Xerox,Google,Ebay,Yahoo,Delicious,Facebook,Twitter ,etc........ Did not need the generic, Craig did not say I need classifieds.com, CraigsList worked fine. I agree with some great comments here Carlton,SpareDomains,Fm1234. Carlton is right IMO that anyone with that comment is not rational. This is an easy business to get into, unlike real estate. So people at least think oh real estate the person is legit because they must have had money to get started in the business. I agree some prices are off the chart and not realistic, but people also say a pair of jeans should not cost $300 or a ball player should make $10,000,000 a year. Who says that ? Well lots of people, those who cannot afford $300 jeans, those who cannot play ball. Maybe its an intellectual elitist who feels they are superior to "some dumb jock" in their opinion. They cannot get over the fact they make $100,000 a year or less and he makes $10,000,000. Get over it, certain things have more perceived value, whether true or not. I certainly think a firemen does a hell of a lot more for society than a ball player, BUT society will not pay the firemen the salary they should get {IF THAT's POSSIBLE) considering the risk. So people will always complain about someone making money easier than them. When people hear a domainer brag, "I made $200 while I slept" some people think SON OF A B****. I work my ass off for $200. Then you have the tech elitist, who either believe everything should be free or are pissed they did not reg everything in 94 when they were the only genius who knew about the Arpa Net. For those that want all of this for free, I ask what do you for a living for free ? Will you build my computer and network for free ? Probably not. I think you got to do what you think is right, I think a universal domainer group and agreeing on principle will not happen. I am not against it but I think too many opinions and it is a loosely knit industry that really only gets together for parties at the playboy mansion. Maybe there should be 400 domainers showing up at an ICANN meeting, stating their agenda. Maybe picket parking companies and Google demanding transparency. I think a lot of people got into domaining because it seems "easy". Its not but people think it. They read DN Journal sales report and think wow. There will always be the envious, the elitist and those trying to steal domains. Everyone needs to stay on top of their portfolio and have realistic expectations. Again IMO __________________ Congrats and Thank you to RJ Protect your brand,secure your .sucks today

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