PayPal and chargebacks?

10-14-2004, 04:38 PM

I have just sold a name to a US buyer that I have not done business w/ before, and PayPal has indicated that he is unverified and that they cannot offer seller protection against chargebacks. First time I've run into this. Although I sense that the buyer is legit, sensing and knowing are two different things. PayPal is rather vague about how to handle this situation.

Any knowledgable member out there that can offer me pointers on how to proceed w/o offending the buyer? I know I probably should have specified cash/(verified?) funds upfront, but a little late for this now. Appreciate any light you could shed here.

ichibaka · 10-14-2004, 05:52 PM

hmm do you take credit card payment? Most unverified paypal users would have at least 1 cc added.

identity_00 · 10-14-2004, 05:56 PM

If you have already sold it - then youre pretty much stuck waiting it out.
I wouldn't mention anything that would give him/her the idea of what he/she could do. I dont think paypal offers insurance for domains anyway even if he/she was verified. Its always a risk.

anthonyjdoe · 10-14-2004, 06:13 PM

It's a shame fact but the seller has little protection even with Paypal's so called protection. Once the ball starts to roll with the chargeback your in for a long run. You'll just have to bite the bullet and take chances...do things like ask for his complete information and have him/her call you this creates some kinda bond with some people....it's a gamble but luckily it's like a 5% chance you get a chargeback..sooner or later you will get one...I have yet to get one but once I do I will sue the f**k out of the person and press fraud charges...gotta make it known not to mess with you....

zweigoh · 10-16-2004, 01:50 AM

what is chargeback?
I'm also a paypal user but i never heard of it.

PolurNET · 10-16-2004, 04:53 AM

I'm in debt $550 USD because of a fraud chargeback, and PayPal has been extremely uncooperative in solving the matter... indeed, it's affecting my whole business, and they're not going to help buyers/sellers to deal with the problem, if it's an intangiable item

Chargeback : Illegal way of complaining to the Credit Card company about an unauthorized charge, after you've bought an item. The credit card company will retract the payment, and PayPal will then hold the funds from the seller/buyer... usually the seller ALWAYS looses.

10-16-2004, 10:43 AM

In other transactions, I have stipulated a *cash*PayPal pmt, in other words, a pmt from the existing balance of funds in the account. This time, I let it slip. I assume that this is still a possible option, but am not certain, due to the changing policies at PayPal, and the ownership change. PolurNET's comments also echo the plight of the seller at eBay, which has also been seeing a dramatic increase in fraud over the past year.

A year and a half ago, I was being stiffed for approx $2,000 by a fantasy sports outfit. After months of emails, phone calls, and several broken promises and excuses, I showed up, unannounced, in their lobby. Man were they surprised! The lady I had been communicating with wouldn't come out to the lobby and never showed her face. Eventually, a supervisor came out, I gave him copies of the documentation and screenshots of the contest winners page, and after a wait of about an hour, I walked away w/ my check.A face to face confrontation, (w/ witnesses, documentation and w/o threats), does have power, but the culprit has to be within range, geographically.

Another lesson I learned the hard way, is that certain money orders, (not USPS), including Western Union can also be charged back, which is the reason that most stores, (including the oulets that sell the money orders!), no longer accept or cash them. Cheaters have had quite an impact on the way business is done. A charge is like a hot potato- the bigger you are, the faster you can pass it off. If its a rotten potato, the small guy who has been cheated, gets the prize.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/domain-name-discussion/51502-paypal-and-chargebacks.html

BTW, I have chargeback.biz.

jdk · 10-16-2004, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by PolurNET

Chargeback : Illegal way of complaining to the Credit Card company about an unauthorized charge, after you've bought an item. The credit card company will retract the payment, and PayPal will then hold the funds from the seller/buyer... usually the seller ALWAYS looses.

Very untrue. You are thinking about true-knowledge fraud. Just because you chargeback a transaction doesn't mean it is an illegal way of complaining to the credit card comapany. So if someone steals your card and racks up 10k on your card you think it would be ILLEGAL to dispute these charges?

PolurNET · 10-16-2004, 01:34 PM

No, i meant in the way most PayPal users scam the sellers; I'm way too experienced with that, and still trying to battle one... however, so far, paypal has been asking me to payup the debt despite the realities of the case

if the seller is at fault, then you have every right to dispute it... but again, i believe PayPal will turn around their case against the buyer anyway, just when you thought things were taken care of

Scott · 10-16-2004, 01:54 PM

We've had 2 chargebacks off the same person. Unfortuantly, they put the reason as 'Unauthorized' so there was little we could do. Moreover, these were only 2 x $5 payments, therefore we should have only lost $10, however PayPal took an extra $10 on each transaction as a 'Fee for processing,' meaning after all cleared, we were left with $20 less than we started with before we recieved the payments.

Mark · 10-16-2004, 02:00 PM

Unless it's someone I know - I now refund all Credit Card Payments - Just plain refuse them !!! - And am getting to the same point on Their Echecks - It's taking on average a week to clear these now -

There is no Seller's Protection What so ever ......

NameCollect · 10-16-2004, 02:03 PM

zweigoh,

A chargeback is when someone pays you with their credit card and then later denies the charge, asking their credit card company to reverse it, returning the funds back to their card. They usually say they didn't make the payment (I've had people say their ten year old got hold of their card, yadda yadda), or they say that they did not receive what they purchased, even though they did.

Receiving too many chargebacks can also hurt you in more ways than just losing money (which is bad enough). If you receive too many chargebacks, your credit card processor may terminate your account believing that you are conducting fraud online. Not good for anyone..

Oh, and FYI, even having "No refunds.. or that you will aggressively dispute chargebacks" within your TOS (Terms of Service) do not help or protect you, especially where Paypal is concerned. If a buyer files a complaint citing that they did not receive the product, Paypal forces you to either prove that they did, or you need to refund them within seven days to avoid having your account restricted. So, for domain names, you're not covered, whether the seller is verified or not.

Scott · 10-16-2004, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by hostjunkies

zweigoh,

A chargeback is when someone pays you with their credit card and then later denies the charge, asking their credit card company to reverse it, returning the funds back to their card. They usually say they didn't make the payment (I've had people say their ten year old got hold of their card, yadda yadda), or they say that they did not receive what they purchased, even though they did.

Receiving too many chargebacks can also hurt you in more ways than just losing money (which is bad enough). If you receive too many chargebacks, your credit card processor may terminate your account believing that you are conducting fraud online. Not good for anyone..

Oh, and FYI, even having "No refunds.. or that you will aggressively dispute chargebacks" within your TOS (Terms of Service) do not help or protect you, especially where Paypal is concerned. If a buyer files a complaint citing that they did not receive the product, Paypal forces you to either prove that they did, or you need to refund them within seven days to avoid having your account restricted. So, for domain names, you're not covered, whether the seller is verified or not.

I think we're forgetting something here though, the chargebacks aren't just at credit card level, you can also do it directly from PayPal. You can open a dispute, say the payment was unauthorized and have a damn good chance of getting the money back.

NameCollect · 10-16-2004, 07:55 PM

Yes, you're right.. although chargeback is usually only used in reference to credit card transactions.. otherwise, it's just called a refund I thought

????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=51502

But yeah, Paypal makes it easy for buyer to get their money back. The only way you can win is if you ship something that contains a tracking number. Or if the buyer files a complaint as "not as described".. then you can refuse the refund easily enough as Paypal doesn't cover it.. they only cover "non receipt" which is tough as heck to dispute.

Oh, and I love how they added a blantant "File A Claim" link to the front page of your account.. just lovely.. nothing like encouraging people .. lol

10-17-2004, 07:25 AM

So requesting payment using account funds vs a credit card is no longer an option or a viable means of avoiding chargebacks? Paupal doesn't distinguish between the two?

Scott · 10-17-2004, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by Grrilla

So requesting payment using account funds vs a credit card is no longer an option or a viable means of avoiding chargebacks?

Not a viable means of avoiding chargebacks at all, unfortuantly.

PolurNET · 10-17-2004, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by Grrilla

So requesting payment using account funds vs a credit card is no longer an option or a viable means of avoiding chargebacks?

That's right, no matter what, you have the possibility of being... errm... screwed

Mark · 10-17-2004, 07:33 AM

I think as long as it was a "Cash" Transaction - You're still safe somewhat Grrilla ...

But it seems they are taking the buyer protection a little too Serious ~ Electronic Transferred items have never been covered as far as I know anyway

10-17-2004, 07:43 AM

Wouldn't copies of emails, screen shots of the registrars site demonstrating the transfer request and acceptence, and screenshots of the before and after whois info prove that the transaction was completed and the goods recieved?

Scott · 10-17-2004, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Grrilla

Wouldn't copies of emails, screen shots of the registrars site demonstrating the transfer request and acceptence, and screenshots of the before and after whois info prove that the transaction was completed and the goods recieved?

I don't think so, not if they claim the payment was unauthorized.

PolurNET · 10-17-2004, 07:53 AM

I tried that Grilla, NO, it doesn't work... they give you automated robot replies, with random like, John, Phil, Michael (probably all the same person, lol) and such pretending to listen to what you have to say. Unfortunately they don't. I tried calling them too... they still don't want to discuss about it, and say it's intagiable, so too bad

10-17-2004, 08:01 AM

So the "buyer" could say that they didn't write and send the email offering to purchase, but they end up acquiring the name. It seems only fair that the "buyer" be required to transfer the name back to the owner if the chargeback is to be honored, seeing that the charge was "unauthorized" and, therefore, made fraudulently by someone on the account holders card. The information is there- the whois is public record, Paypal doesn't have to dig very far. What the h~ll !!

Ahh! Unless the card info actually was stolen and is actually being used fraudulently.

10-17-2004, 08:07 AM

I am a little bit troubled by the state of the transaction that brought this question up. The payment has been made to my PayPal account, but the buyer hasn't responded to my email requesting the buyers info and account email. I even included a link to GoDaddy to set-up an account, if necessary.

***armstrong*** · 10-17-2004, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by hostjunkies

The only way you can win is if you ship something that contains a tracking number.

How about if you fedex/ups them instructions on how to acces the domain? That'll give you a tracking number. You'd have to be creative on how to word your ebay sale, though. Like:

Quote:

FOR SALE: Printed instructions on how to manage the domain name abcdef.com, including URL, username, and password. Instructions will also include instructions on how to transfer the domain name abcdef.com to your name.

Anyone care to try this scenario past ebay?

10-17-2004, 08:46 AM

I guess that could also apply to a non-eBay sale as well. It would seem to make it more "tangible".
The concept of "tangible" and "intangible" goods and services would seem to be somewhat archaic in an increasingly virtual world. Is PayPal's product any more tangible than domain names?

10-14-2004, 04:38 PM	THREAD STARTER #1 (permalink)
Grrilla Guest Posts: n/a	PayPal and chargebacks? I have just sold a name to a US buyer that I have not done business w/ before, and PayPal has indicated that he is unverified and that they cannot offer seller protection against chargebacks. First time I've run into this. Although I sense that the buyer is legit, sensing and knowing are two different things. PayPal is rather vague about how to handle this situation. Any knowledgable member out there that can offer me pointers on how to proceed w/o offending the buyer? I know I probably should have specified cash/(verified?) funds upfront, but a little late for this now. Appreciate any light you could shed here.

10-14-2004, 06:13 PM	#4 (permalink)
anthonyjdoe NamePros Regular Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 403	It's a shame fact but the seller has little protection even with Paypal's so called protection. Once the ball starts to roll with the chargeback your in for a long run. You'll just have to bite the bullet and take chances...do things like ask for his complete information and have him/her call you this creates some kinda bond with some people....it's a gamble but luckily it's like a 5% chance you get a chargeback..sooner or later you will get one...I have yet to get one but once I do I will sue the fk out of the person and press fraud charges...gotta make it known not to mess with you.... __________________ HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO EVERYONE**

10-16-2004, 01:50 AM	#5 (permalink)
zweigoh NamePros Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 80	what is chargeback? I'm also a paypal user but i never heard of it. __________________ Image Hosting at low price www.sitelists.com - Best web-site directory around! Contains everything you need to know. www.templatealien.com - Online templates: Professional, Affordable, the bests on the net! We offer WildWestDomain Reseller account @ $89.95 + Free TurnKey scripts

10-16-2004, 10:43 AM	THREAD STARTER #7 (permalink)
Grrilla Guest Posts: n/a	In other transactions, I have stipulated a cashPayPal pmt, in other words, a pmt from the existing balance of funds in the account. This time, I let it slip. I assume that this is still a possible option, but am not certain, due to the changing policies at PayPal, and the ownership change. PolurNET's comments also echo the plight of the seller at eBay, which has also been seeing a dramatic increase in fraud over the past year. A year and a half ago, I was being stiffed for approx $2,000 by a fantasy sports outfit. After months of emails, phone calls, and several broken promises and excuses, I showed up, unannounced, in their lobby. Man were they surprised! The lady I had been communicating with wouldn't come out to the lobby and never showed her face. Eventually, a supervisor came out, I gave him copies of the documentation and screenshots of the contest winners page, and after a wait of about an hour, I walked away w/ my check.A face to face confrontation, (w/ witnesses, documentation and w/o threats), does have power, but the culprit has to be within range, geographically. Another lesson I learned the hard way, is that certain money orders, (not USPS), including Western Union can also be charged back, which is the reason that most stores, (including the oulets that sell the money orders!), no longer accept or cash them. Cheaters have had quite an impact on the way business is done. A charge is like a hot potato- the bigger you are, the faster you can pass it off. If its a rotten potato, the small guy who has been cheated, gets the prize. ????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/domain-name-discussion/51502-paypal-and-chargebacks.html BTW, I have chargeback.biz. Last edited by Grrilla; 10-16-2004 at 10:48 AM.

10-16-2004, 02:00 PM	#11 (permalink)
Mark Hi :) Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: NC Posts: 9,537	Unless it's someone I know - I now refund all Credit Card Payments - Just plain refuse them !!! - And am getting to the same point on Their Echecks - It's taking on average a week to clear these now - There is no Seller's Protection What so ever ...... __________________ When the man at the door yelled "Alcohol , Tobacco , and Firearms" .... I just assumed it was a delivery !

	LeadRefs	Forum Sponsorship
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10-14-2004, 05:52 PM	#2 (permalink)
ichibaka NamePros Regular Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 245	hmm do you take credit card payment? Most unverified paypal users would have at least 1 cc added.

10-14-2004, 05:56 PM	#3 (permalink)
identity_00 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 1,212	If you have already sold it - then youre pretty much stuck waiting it out. I wouldn't mention anything that would give him/her the idea of what he/she could do. I dont think paypal offers insurance for domains anyway even if he/she was verified. Its always a risk.

10-16-2004, 04:53 AM	#6 (permalink)
PolurNET Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: I ♥ Business Law Posts: 3,082	I'm in debt $550 USD because of a fraud chargeback, and PayPal has been extremely uncooperative in solving the matter... indeed, it's affecting my whole business, and they're not going to help buyers/sellers to deal with the problem, if it's an intangiable item Chargeback : Illegal way of complaining to the Credit Card company about an unauthorized charge, after you've bought an item. The credit card company will retract the payment, and PayPal will then hold the funds from the seller/buyer... usually the seller ALWAYS looses.

10-16-2004, 01:34 PM	#9 (permalink)
PolurNET Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: I ♥ Business Law Posts: 3,082	No, i meant in the way most PayPal users scam the sellers; I'm way too experienced with that, and still trying to battle one... however, so far, paypal has been asking me to payup the debt despite the realities of the case if the seller is at fault, then you have every right to dispute it... but again, i believe PayPal will turn around their case against the buyer anyway, just when you thought things were taken care of

10-16-2004, 01:54 PM	#10 (permalink)
Scott Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: UK Posts: 3,541	We've had 2 chargebacks off the same person. Unfortuantly, they put the reason as 'Unauthorized' so there was little we could do. Moreover, these were only 2 x $5 payments, therefore we should have only lost $10, however PayPal took an extra $10 on each transaction as a 'Fee for processing,' meaning after all cleared, we were left with $20 less than we started with before we recieved the payments.

10-16-2004, 02:03 PM	#12 (permalink)
NameCollect Account Closed Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 77	Re zweigoh, A chargeback is when someone pays you with their credit card and then later denies the charge, asking their credit card company to reverse it, returning the funds back to their card. They usually say they didn't make the payment (I've had people say their ten year old got hold of their card, yadda yadda), or they say that they did not receive what they purchased, even though they did. Receiving too many chargebacks can also hurt you in more ways than just losing money (which is bad enough). If you receive too many chargebacks, your credit card processor may terminate your account believing that you are conducting fraud online. Not good for anyone.. Oh, and FYI, even having "No refunds.. or that you will aggressively dispute chargebacks" within your TOS (Terms of Service) do not help or protect you, especially where Paypal is concerned. If a buyer files a complaint citing that they did not receive the product, Paypal forces you to either prove that they did, or you need to refund them within seven days to avoid having your account restricted. So, for domain names, you're not covered, whether the seller is verified or not.

10-16-2004, 07:55 PM	#14 (permalink)
NameCollect Account Closed Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 77	Yes, you're right.. although chargeback is usually only used in reference to credit card transactions.. otherwise, it's just called a refund I thought ????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=51502 But yeah, Paypal makes it easy for buyer to get their money back. The only way you can win is if you ship something that contains a tracking number. Or if the buyer files a complaint as "not as described".. then you can refuse the refund easily enough as Paypal doesn't cover it.. they only cover "non receipt" which is tough as heck to dispute. Oh, and I love how they added a blantant "File A Claim" link to the front page of your account.. just lovely.. nothing like encouraging people .. lol

10-17-2004, 07:25 AM	THREAD STARTER #15 (permalink)
Grrilla Guest Posts: n/a	So requesting payment using account funds vs a credit card is no longer an option or a viable means of avoiding chargebacks? Paupal doesn't distinguish between the two? Last edited by Grrilla; 10-17-2004 at 07:42 AM.

10-17-2004, 07:33 AM	#18 (permalink)
Mark Hi :) Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: NC Posts: 9,537	I think as long as it was a "Cash" Transaction - You're still safe somewhat Grrilla ... But it seems they are taking the buyer protection a little too Serious ~ Electronic Transferred items have never been covered as far as I know anyway __________________ When the man at the door yelled "Alcohol , Tobacco , and Firearms" .... I just assumed it was a delivery !

10-17-2004, 07:43 AM	THREAD STARTER #19 (permalink)
Grrilla Guest Posts: n/a	Wouldn't copies of emails, screen shots of the registrars site demonstrating the transfer request and acceptence, and screenshots of the before and after whois info prove that the transaction was completed and the goods recieved?

10-17-2004, 07:53 AM	#21 (permalink)
PolurNET Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: I ♥ Business Law Posts: 3,082	I tried that Grilla, NO, it doesn't work... they give you automated robot replies, with random like, John, Phil, Michael (probably all the same person, lol) and such pretending to listen to what you have to say. Unfortunately they don't. I tried calling them too... they still don't want to discuss about it, and say it's intagiable, so too bad

10-17-2004, 08:01 AM	THREAD STARTER #22 (permalink)
Grrilla Guest Posts: n/a	So the "buyer" could say that they didn't write and send the email offering to purchase, but they end up acquiring the name. It seems only fair that the "buyer" be required to transfer the name back to the owner if the chargeback is to be honored, seeing that the charge was "unauthorized" and, therefore, made fraudulently by someone on the account holders card. The information is there- the whois is public record, Paypal doesn't have to dig very far. What the h~ll !! Ahh! Unless the card info actually was stolen and is actually being used fraudulently. Last edited by Grrilla; 10-17-2004 at 08:12 AM.

10-17-2004, 08:07 AM	THREAD STARTER #23 (permalink)
Grrilla Guest Posts: n/a	I am a little bit troubled by the state of the transaction that brought this question up. The payment has been made to my PayPal account, but the buyer hasn't responded to my email requesting the buyers info and account email. I even included a link to GoDaddy to set-up an account, if necessary.

10-17-2004, 08:46 AM	THREAD STARTER #25 (permalink)
Grrilla Guest Posts: n/a	I guess that could also apply to a non-eBay sale as well. It would seem to make it more "tangible". The concept of "tangible" and "intangible" goods and services would seem to be somewhat archaic in an increasingly virtual world. Is PayPal's product any more tangible than domain names?

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