Grrilla

If there were no domain name community, would the internet be losing anything? Would the internet, in fact, be better off if domaining, as we know it, were to dry up and fall away from the internet landscape? There is little doubt that in many business circles we are viewed as a scourge- a gang of oppurtunists who have usurped a plot of cyberterritory that we have no business of being in. In all truthfulness, just how necessary is the domainer and what function does he serve? It's easy for us, myself included, to look away and point our fingers at the shady practices of registrars, drop services and competitors who may be using us or taking advantage of us. But while we are pointing our fingers, I think that we would also profit by taking a look inward to do some self examination of our own business and find ways that we can be of better service to domain name buyers and further establish ourselves as an integral part of the domain name marketing chain. I, for one, would like to see my position as a domainer justified by more than, merely, being the first in line to register a name following some specific area of research that I've performed or an imaginitative idea that popped into my head as a result of some "creative", thinking. (I said "creative". I didn't say that "creative", mecessarily, always meant "good".)
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/domain-name-discussion/157230-are-domainers-necessary-part-market-chain.html

"Research" and "Creative Thinking" are central to good domaining and are two of our most marketable skills- *if presented properly*. Domaining, for the most part, is not a very cost effective way of making a living. Serious domainers are, literally, spending hundreds of hours at the computer, using a plethora of software programs, as well as, the services provided at 100's of sites researching, among other things, expiration dates, SE links, OV/WT search #'s, backlinks, Alexa and PR rankings, SEO techniques, reported sales, prices at listing sites, auction results, tld/cctld figures, technology trends, new products, breaking news, trademark and legal issues and ___, (fill in the blank), hours at NamePros trying to unrave, analyze and synthesize the enormous amount of data that they are digging up. -AND- this is just scratching the surface as I left out a few minor activities, such as, availability searches, tracking deleting domains, ppc and portfolio and name management.

Serious domainers don't see the printed word and don't view television commercials in the same manner as "normal", (hehe), people do. They will pass a billboard and the first thing that will capture their eye is the website address. "Wow! There's another.Us!" During the course of reading, a word will cross their path and rather than reading on, a series of events, that are quite unique to the domaining world, will be triggered and set into motion as the domainer begins to dissect, juxtapose, sift through, look for associative meanings, as well as, tweak, pinch, prod and poke at the poor word in all manner of unspeakable ways with only one purpose in mind- molding a viable domain name. And that bit of imaginative thinking is only a prelude to the searches and research and searches and more research that will follow.

These are the efforts that are put forth and these are the strengths that define the domainer. Our experience with domain name analysis has value. Our skill with language, phrases and words has value. Our imagination and creative ability with words have value. I believe that we, both individually and collectively, have done a poor job in presenting this picture to the world. The services that we have to offer need to be communicated w/ better clarity to our potential buyers and to be projected and promoted w/ more forcefullnessto the domain community at large. If our aptitude for language, our creative, often, unique talent with words and the specialized set of analytical skills that we have developed are presented in a better manner, potential buyers will be able to see what's been hiding below the surface and will tap into the resources that we have to offer. We will become more "marketer" and less "salesman". The position of the domainer within the chain will solidify and all parties will enjoy the benefits and the rewards of an improved relationship.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=157230

So, does anyone want to weigh in on what they think some of the tangible steps towards acheiving this goal might be?

cache

I think domainers contribute to the "marketing/promotion" part of the business (as you mentioned the analysis we provided has value etc). I always view the names the same as stocks, you can buy and sell. But the difference is that the name is not as solid as a car maker making autos. The name is more subjective, it may be similar to a new design for a T-shirt. Compared to other T-shirt, a particular T-shirt may be better, however it may be out of fashion soon.

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mole

It really depends on which dimension of 'domainers' you are refering to, la.

First, there are those whose primary objective is to come in early on a new extension and laying the ground bare by grabbing all the good generic names as they leave the womb. These are the real domain speculators, movers who hedge on early plays when the rest of domain land is sleeping. Such forms of domaining stifle the growth of a new namespace right from birth, by hoarding and disincentizing others who may have had a better use of the name(s) to use the really good names.

Then, there are those whose primary objective is to leech traffic for all its worth, acquiring thousands of names for "type-in" value to be sold to a doomed life in the PPC farms. These are the lowest end feeders who, like locusts, lay the ground bare and cause the market ecosystem and namespaces to degenerate into an ugly wasteland of spam.

Extending further, there are those whose primary objective is to aggregate domains into subject clusters in an attempt to create new meaning to domains ala 'the sum is greater than the parts'. These domain aggregators are like organized ants, they toil day and night to locate compatible domains that they can bring back to the nest. The queen ant (the subject, theme, area of speciality) is all that matters in the equation.

Let's not forget those whos primary objective is to build an empire, the portfolio of portfolios. These are the predator feeders who viciously yank names from auctions with huge wads of cash, who casually and regularly offer 10x revenue for domains - and whose main aim in showing intense aggression is to crush the little guy out of the game. To these people, size matters more than quality. These are the tigers of the ecosystem, with an obsessive urge to rule the roost, at whatever cost.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=157230

Last but not least, there are the domain recyclers, those who rummage through scrap to find domains in hopes of reselling to others for a nice profit.

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armstrong

We are the internet's real estate specialists.

In the brick-and-mortar world, do real estate agents and companies add value to the real estate sales chain? Or are they merely locusts and opportunists who use their inside info and access to capital to prey on people who might actually build something useful? IMHO, real estate agents and domainers both add value by:
- helping end-users find a suitable site before they blow an obscene amount developing an inapprpriate location
- stabilize market prices by purchasing locations that are too cheap, and selling more property in a certain location when prices reach absurd levels

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Binfus

Edited...

Vegas Entertainment

Armstrong I AGREE.....As i see it we are one if not more of the following:
"Internet real-estate agents"
"independent contractor"
"the company and the foundation"

In a term some might understand we are the Internet "Breakfast Club", we are trying to understand what we are and how we can shake the image the people perceive. The more a community bonds and molds we form an alliance, not the alliance people see now "cybersquatters/opportunist ect." But a true alliance of people, that want the same thing and work as hard (if not harder)then the normal 9 to 5er. With sometimes little or no return for weeks,months, even years. I don`t know many people that would work and not get paid for 1 month or more and stay on the job. We are much stronger as a community, as 1 could not stand alone in this business. The battle could be fought but the war would not be won.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=157230

I sometimes hear mt friends say:
"wow is it to late to buy names?" I never asked when i started, did you?

"How can i get in?" Nobody held my hand i went out and figured it out by researching this product.

"How much have you made" do you tell people what you make if you work at a bar, or car salesmen?

"do you have a real job" they don`t see use as having a job, "oh he is on the pc all day that's easy" try it, we know it ant easy.

"Francois doesn't`t work, he must have money to be doing that" Were do they think it comes from? it does not grow on trees.
If you do this full time,you may have heard we don`t work, these same people are the ones that need to know who we are. We are the eyes and ears, the behind the curtain, the OZ of this business. Yes there are bigger fish (much bigger) but with out us they could not eat so remember that. Im not sure "Grilla" what if any proper title we could extract from what we do but it would be nice to be able to answer someone that ask me " so what do you do (for the past 9years)" and with out a hour explanation of what i do" say.... I'm a ___________?" and then hear them say " oh yea Ive heard about that, that's cool" and realize that we are not like the people everyone claims to dislike (until they need them) Attorney/doctor/police/car salesmen. I would love friends to say he does great in "Internet real-estate" and then explain it to that person, but they don`t know as we are very tight kept. I show people that have interest DNJorunal (sales) and namepros(community) to show I'm not crazy and there is a network of us.A monthly publication would be huge for our future as "domainers", and the public.

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primacomputer

What is the definition of a domainer and what is the definition of better/necessary, etc?

I started in the domain name business ten years ago in much the role you describe as ideal. I was a consultant who helped clients select names that fit with brands for their online marketing efforts. This worked great for a few years. When one of my “suggestions” was was resold for $150k+ I realised that I might be in the wrong business.

Then I started registering names that fit with concepts I thought would be business opportunities. I realised I would never be able to develop all these concepts. It was more of a preemptive action to ensure that I didn't have to buy the name off someone else down the road for ten times as much.

Then the bubble burst prices dropped, names dropped, and I was able to pick up a lot of names I wanted. Somewhere along the way a other people came up with the the same idea for the same name as me. I sold of a number of names at over 100k% profit and parleyed those earning into even more names. I was so successful in negotiations that I started brokering for other people.

So I would say that domainers are not only an necessary, be inevitable product of this market. You can start off with completely altruistic intentions but eventually any rational person will sense the profit to be made and become a speculator.

Speculators are an inevitable and necessary part of any capitalist market. You can not have a free and open market without them. There should also be no question the market would not be where it is today without them. But does this make it better?

If you goal is the appreciation in value and volume of names traded then the answer is a resounding yes. If your goal is to have names available for anyone who has a clever idea to register and develop then it's a resounding no. I don't think either goal is a fundamental truth so any answer would be subjective.

There is sleaze in any market. I can't say that I've never used a bit if “inside” information to register names that I knew would increase in value. But I've never conspired to rip of the public en mass like the registrars and drop services. It's much more than a fine line that separates an opportunist from a criminal conspiracy.
Amen. I would like to think that this will all disappear as the PPC model is (once again) proven to be unsustainable. Unfortunately the model may change but the advertising will remain. Even the communists of 150 years ago recognised the importance of advertising in a capitalist market.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=157230
An excellent analogy. Some of us buy property for us and our family to live in. Some develop office space. A lot of us are slum lords
Start a marketing company? Unfortunately I think you'll find there are very few people who are willing to pay for someone to tell them what names to register. Fundamentally a domain name should be given the same attention to detail as a brand name, logo, or any part of corporate identity. But the world is full of fools who insist on registering names like crappy-name-intl.net. Still I think your efforts are better spent trying to educate the client than change the way most domainers go about their business.

DomainMart

Forgive my ignorance, why do you think registrars and drop services are criminals?

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EbookLover

I would bet that most people outside the domain industry look upon domain trading as a negative thing, grouping squatters and domain traders together, even though it is wrong to do so.

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TUFKATH

I was thinking about this the other day... what if there were no domains? We all just had IP addresses and such. This is an impossible world now but it would be interesting...

Genialnames

I think that it depend from how one work.
Someone is doing serious business, and with serious I mean one is not cheating others, so that shure he add value and professionalism to the field , so, in that sense domainers are necessary part of the system, if not only because many people don't even know where to start to setup a domain name. Furthermore without domainers the domain market wouldn't even exist.IMHO

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cache

well, it is like all the businesses in your shopping mall do not have the business names, only the addresses. In this case you need a mapping directory to find the proper place, i.e., you don't come to a game shop
to buy your food etc.

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TUFKATH

Good point cache. There would be very little way to refer to certain stores or domains.

Grrilla

Great comments and plenty of food for thought.
For the record, I have never been enamoured w/ the monicker, "domainer", but have succumbed to it's use. Even so, whenever the term "domainer" or "domainers" comes up, I can't shake this vision that comes to me of some happy band of scouts or rangers surfing about the internet, merrily registering domain names. Addtionally, the term, "domaining" covers a broad range of unique enterprises that need to be drilled down and looked at/ separately if any meaninful conclusions are to be drawn. (mole's post did just that, albeit subjectively.)

"better/necessary"? The reality is that for better or for worse, whether necessary or unneccessary we are here, so on one level this can be viewed as a moot question. The question, "Are Domainers a Necessary Part of the Market Chain?" came to my mind, in part, as a result of the corporatization of the marketplace, a trend I believe is currently shifting the balance of power in the domain name marketplace towards the large, well organized companies, (and "parnered" companies) and away from the small-medium "domaining" enterprises. So, within this context, the question isn't hypothetical, at all. If the domain market becomes locked up by large interests, (a very real possibility, given the present climate), what can the "domainer"- the small guy do on an indidual basis to enhance his status in the scheme of things. Perhaps, trying to market ones skills and abilities, skills that are specific to the trade, is a Pollyanish concept. Perhap,s domain name marketing is a pursuit in which the value of the skills can be judged, only, by how far they carry the individual. Maybe, I'm attempting to explore the possibilities of gaining some sort of a foothold in a niche that really isn't there and I'm simply dreaming. You tell me.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=157230

One theme that has been a throughline within this discussion is a defensiveness relative to the oppurtunistic nature of "domaining". In some instances, it reads to me as if oppurtunism is OK, as long as it is my brand of oppurtunism. ie. Making a, somewhat, hazey distinction between those activities that are oppurtunistic and those that are criminal. Defending the right to participate in free enterprise the way one sees fit w/o any apologies. Condoning any all all activity as long as it doesnt break the law. I find it ironic that many of the same people who ascribe oppurtunism to be a central feature of domaining and who are defending their right to take advantage of oppurtunity in any way that they see fit, (barring criminal activity), are also condemning other businesses who are, essentially, doing the same thing, but w/ a differnt approach and methodology. Could this be a case of oppurtunism is fine, as long as it is the right flavor of oppurtunism? (ie my flavor)

Grrilla

Let me introduce you to the flavor of oppurtunism that I don't like:
http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=141281
The reason I don't like this particular form of oppurtunism, is because it is against the interests of the small, independent domain name operator. Besides the fact that I am a small, independent domain name operator and that the well-organized corporatization of the domain name industry runs counter to my own interests, I have always been drawn to championing the underdog who is at a disadvantage when going up against organized money.

primacomputer

In any market there will be some people who hone their skills, acquire financial resources, and rise to the top (or sink to the bottom?) There will also be people who bend or break the rules. Still, in the long run there will always be room for the small guys to get involved. If all the big guys have all the good names then people will simply have to settle for bad names. Look at the kind of names people were registering in '99.
There will always be opportunities to be creative in the .com name space. New words and new ways of using words are created every day. This is not what the big domain players are into. In fact if they are tying up anything with good keywords or PPC traffic, then they are actually helping to increase the value of expertise in this creative niche market.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=157230
Opportunism is fine, healthy in even, so long as it is done within the letter and spirit of the law. Cybersquatting, dropsquatters, slammers, shills, “appraisers”, etc are bad because their activities are so repulsive to decent people that we have actually made laws to prohibit them. And the law is the most objective rule of measure we have. Anything else is simply someones opinion.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=157230

I'm not defending any specific activities that may be legal but which you might find unethical. I'm simply saying that in another place or culture they might be perfectly acceptable. We don't all have to agree on everything. As long as we can put up with each others silly quirks that don't harm anyone we'll do fine.

cache

http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=141281
I tried to access it, it said that:

cache, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=157230
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

what is going on?

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Grrilla

Hmm...
This may have something to do w/ the thread being tied to the DNOA Member Forum, which requires a membership- I'm not sure. If this is the case, my apologies for providing this link and I'll look for another, alternative link. I'll check into it and see if I can find out wazzup.

EbookLover

Sorry to say but I think that domainers are only necessary insofar as there would be no namepros.com if there were no domainers.

I don't think that it is the domainers that bring valuable domains to people. They would find them anyway and only have to pay reg fee. If this were the case, though, domains would cost much more than they do to register.

Who knows, maybe someday it will all come crumbling, crumbling, crumbling down. Everything and anything is possible. All it takes is a rich person, a lawyer, & the will to make things happen, unfortunately.

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slaughterbeck

I can’t decide if I want to be a locust or an ant. Hmm, if I’m an ant can I at least be a queen ant?

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Grrilla

Hark! Hark! What doth I hear o'er yonder? 'Tis the sound of worker ants lining up to be of service to their Queen!

barefoottech

Yes 100% Agree
If I get asked that by some scriptkiddy again in chat,I swear there will be a drive-by killing.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=157230
Too many people think Domainers and Domain Ownership is reserved for Part-timers and Newbies.

In the last week alone, I have had
1/
Someone asked me how he could get a $xxx,xxx name in a UDRP dispute just because he just thought of the name for his site and Did not realise that someone else had registered it in 1997 had any rights to keep it.
2/
Someone who wants the owner of a LLL.com name (regged in 2000) to give it to him because he owns the .org. (regged Last year) and he expects to register the .net when (not IF) it drops later this year
3/
I also have people who somehow think people/companies should not own more than 1 or 2 names. Come on Fellas ,it is a business , Domains are assets and as such can and will be traded ,accumulated ,enhanced and marketed just like any other Business Asset. If you only need and use 1 Name for your own site ,great mate,but don't rubbish and Denigrate those that own and use names as a business.

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cache

If we consider domains as stocks, and the domainers are stock traders. It is true that the stock traders don't affect much the long term stock value, but for a speculative small cap stock, the traders can help it realised its true value much sooner. Imagine a stock market without many traders, it will not be as liquid.

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Grrilla

hehe I doubt you'll find many of those folks around these parts- I'm talking about the hard-core business owner who believes he has a god-given right to a website address because his business justifies it. I'm sure there continues to be people that haven't come to grips w/ the fact that domain names have an independent life of their own and are governed by supply-demand economics and other market influences, (ie other more established commodities), but these hard-liners have to be seen as the ostriches, (and/or dodo's), of the business community.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=157230

I think the major squabbles and in-fighting in the domain name world are over matters of emphasis, priorities and degree, as well as internet control and usage issues.

antonis12

If you accept the analogy that domains are "real estate" then you would expect over time that domains would and should move to their "highest and best" use in a free market.

That is typically meant to represent the most economically valuable activity that can be performed in that location. In other words, a free lot on 5th avenue is not logically going to be used for a drive-in movie theater, it will be used for a skyscraper with expensive retail stores, apartments and office space. The way assets migrate to the "highest and best" use is through free exchange. If the lot is truly more valuable for a skyscraper, the real estate developer should be able to make the movie theater owner an offer for his/her land that is more valuable than the continued operation of a movie theater (or the land owner raise capital and build a building themselves). This has obvious parallels to domain sales and domain development.


Example: In an efficient and economically rational market, shoes.com will*ultimately* be owned by a national (if not global) shoe retailer, not by Joe's Shoe Shack since much more value can be generated from shoes.com that way. Alternatively, Joe's Shoe Shack will become a global retailer inself, but, in either case, the end result is the same.


If you believe this scenario, then a case could be made that domaineers by, improving the liquidity of the domain market, accelerate the process of domains moving to their highest and best use.

How do domaineers improve liquidity?

If domaineers did not exist, then someone else would have registered premium domain names for their business or personal use. It might be the mega-retailer or more likely it might be one of the thousands of small retailers or individual. It is almost certainly the case that a small retailer has a LOWER likelihood of selling the name to the mega-retailer than a domaineer since they have higher transaction/switching costs (e.g. they might have already printed business cards with the domain name on them). These higher transaction costs lead to less liquidity and a longer time path to efficient outcomes in the use of the name.

So, to recap:

1. Great domains should be put to "highest and best" use.

2. Putting domains to their "highest and best" use is good for the economy as anything else is, by definition, less efficient
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=157230

3. Whether or not domaineers exist, #1 will ultimately happen, as small businesses are propositioned by larger businesses (which is why there are no drive-in movie theater on fifth avenue)

4. Domaineers have lower transaction and switching costs than businesses and, therefore, create market liquidity and potentially accelerate the process of domain names finding their proper ultimate use.

If one wants a case for domaineers performing a "societal good", I believe this is it.

That said, I do not believe domaineers need to believe parts #1 to #4 to justify what they do (trademark issues, unethical behavior aside), since if domaineers did not exist, the market would create the same outcomes. Ultimately there will always be incentives for domains to trade to users that have greater value of them. That is the essence of a market and cannot be worked around.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=157230

--
ps. on a different note, but relating to another point raised in this thread, the economic viability of the small domaineer will diminish over time in any particular extension as the market becomes more efficient and economies of scale take hold in domain acquisition and domain monetization expertise and capabilities.

It is already very difficult in the .com space for a undercapitalized "newbie" to do particularly well short of investing a large amount of time training themselves and working at it.

this is another natural and positive outcome of a free-market and is inevitable in a field like domain acquisition that poses absolutely no meaningful barriers to entry.