snoop

Unfortunately there is no"right" or "wrong" business model. Some people make money flipping domains, some people make money selling to endusers, some off parking, some off development, some off a mixture of all, others make losses every year regardless of what they do. None of those areas are easy or better than any of the others in my view so to suggest one sales strategy is better than the other is a bit like saying it is better to run upmarket stores than discount chains.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/domain-name-discussion/614624-domainers-are-delusional.html

You can sell lots of names for low prices or very few names for high prices, either way it is going to to a lot work to make a living from it.

---------- Post added at 10:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 PM ----------

An awful sounding comment but it does ring true. Development is often the next step taken when domaining does not work out. For a really good example of that head to the .tv section and see the number of people talking about only keeping a handful of their names and developing them. We are seeing more of it with people who are earning less from parking as well.

tristanperry

Still pretty important. Not as important as in domaining, but developers still suggest to go for a .com above all else (then the .net, then the .org - and possibly a .info, but not many other TLDs)
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

Ah sorry I meant external backlinks pointing to your site. But either way, that is good though. If you are top without any real backlinks, it could be quite low competition hence you don't really need anything other than good content to go top.

DubDubDubDot

That works both ways though.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

There are a lot of failed developers that bought a ton of domains for their big plans, didn't do anything with them and found themselves domaining instead.

mwzd

I'm moderately successful w/ both. And as a developer I only had about 30 domains. 50x more as a domainer.

Is either of them 'easy money', at the lower end, maybe, definitely not at the higher end.

We're exploring moving away from adsense though, revenues have fallen year on year even for our major sites and it just doesn't make enough to justify the pageviews.

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jlw

These strategies are not mutually exclusive, but complimentary. If you want to wait for your brandable names to sell to end-users, and you own a few thousand names, you need to make them carry their weight while you wait. The ROI mostly comes from the sales, and the income is only enough to let you afford to hold them.

The WordPress route works well for niche topical sites with little to no natural type-in traffic (such as MissouriLandmarks.com or StuntBikes.us). (Don't forget to add Pluck content to your template for increased stickiness (plus Pluck income), but I don't use Pluck's social networking tools, just the WP comment system.

The number not included in most of the numerical analysis posted by others above is the value of your development time. It takes a two long days to build a distinctive WordPress site with nice template modifications and ten well-written original articles pages, not counting all the marketing of the site suggested by the original poster.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

Some domain names naturally suggest a community, in which case you can put up a forum script (or Joomla with a forum component). Examples include Accordionist.org, which now earns about $40 per month; and I may try the same with similar domain names, like DollCollectors.org, PostcardCollectors.net, etc.) But this takes more development time than WP does (perhaps two weeks of tinkering rather than two days). The advantage is that your users develop the content for you; the page count (and Adsense income) rises over time. Disadvantages are that it takes a ton of marketing work to reach critical mass. (So your site doesn't forever look like a party waiting for the first guests to arrive.) You also need to police the site for spam.

Finally, here's a controversial (almost certainly illegal) idea that also works very well, because it takes the least development time and generates he most content, and stays current and growing. If your domain suggests a topic, but you have no time to write massive amounts of content, you can find an existing huge site on that subject, but one with poor page titles, no meta tags, and some bad SEO features. With about one long day of php development, you can proxy that site, fixing all its problems at the same time; plus add AdSense. See, for example, JewishTampa.org and compare it to JewishTampa.com. Do this only where you are certain there won't be trouble from folks who know they are being proxied. (For example, you are bringing their content to a wider audience, not distorting their messages or image, and their goal is audience not profit.)

None of these methods generate enough income to justify the development and marketing time (at least not at the rates for pros here in the USA, perhaps offshore it does?), but they enable the portfolio to carry itself, while waiting to get your delusional price.

There's another model that I'd like to try but never have. (If anyone wants to partner on it, PM me.) That is to find an avid hobbyist or expert professional in some subject, who is a non-technical person who wouldn't dream of owning/managing a domain, set up phpBB or WP for them at one of my relevant domains, and give them their blog or forum presence for free in return for the adsense. (Examples might include CanoeTrips.info, BalletNotes.com, DanceTherapist.com, TodaysPlumber.com, ExpertElders.com, ElectionNotes.com, etc.) They would generate the content and audience. I do the site development and hosting and pocket the AdSense. (If they were a big name draw, or they exceed certain very high income levels we might start to share the revenue. We might also include an option for them to buy it out at specified times and prices; but I think that might scare off the people I have in mind.) Has anybody any experience trying stuff like that?
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

--- Jordan

Jaco

It never ceases to amaze me how many "domainers" completely fail to realize that domains have an actual purpose... Or, maybe they 'realize' it in the intellectual sense, but actual, functional domain use (or the advantages any given domain might have over other domains upon use) isn't a remote part of their considerations when transacting in them.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

I can identify at least a half-dozen CLASSIC mania behaviors existing in the "domaining community", chiefly, a complete disconnect between legitimate value drivers and 'perceived value' - where so much hope is predicated on mythical, deep-pocketed end-users who will come swooping in to make us all rich. They're all just awaiting some 'grand awakening' when the liquidity of business is hammered into domain ownership... and yeah. we'll really show 'em then!
Almost all of them have become 21st Century trading sardines, the sale prices of which are predicated entirely on the presence of a greater fool. From this, we obviously exclude those names which clearly aren't "trading sardines", but those are maybe, what... 5% of the total namespace? They for damn sure ain't being plucked out of godaddy for $7.49.

I think if proponents of "domaining" were to ever study the basics of value investing, heads would explode and/or some profound cases of cognitive dissonance would occur.

fm1234

posted by Dongsman:
Post of the day.


Frank

akcampbell

Yes but domaining and value investing are polar opposite investing strategies. A value investor like Warren Buffett became the world's richest man in 2008 by generating an average annual return of 25%-30% over a 50 year period. Compounding, consistency, hard work, understanding financial statements, cash inflows into his funds from his connections and notoriety, 25% market outperformance bonuses, investing during a period when you could buy blue chip quality for low single digit earnings multiples, and maybe even more than his fair share of luck helped achieve that. However, Warren Buffet still didn't increase his investment 200 fold in 1 year like NP member Dotprofan did when he sold eBook.pro for $3,900 this week.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

There is alot of skill in domaining both in the buying and selling but there is also alot of luck. Most domainers lose money but some get lucky, domainers are sustained and entertained by the rags to riches stories Ron Jackson writes abouts on DNJournal. Domaining is fun, it's frivolous, it's a fusion of word search and roulette wheel, there is no point likening it to buying shares in blue chip companies with low single digit earnings multiples, strong cash flows, bullet proof brands, and natural monopolies.

Domainers are chancers, dreamers, gamblers, wheeler dealers, hobbyist developers, and entrepreneurs, but to dismiss them as delusional is ridiculous. Turning down an offer for $500 or offering a $1,000 domain for $25,000 is part of the game. Yes only 1% of domains are saleable, and maybe only 1% of domainers are clever enough, dedicated enough, or lucky enough to make any real money out of it but trying to do that is a pleasant distraction. And contrary to what you may think, we not all intellectually inferior to you!:-)

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Rates.info and Prices.info currently at Sedo auction. No reserve price. Ends 24 May 2012.

Damion

Google can indeed determine ownership relationships between domains, and automated as well due to Google being a registrar themselves.

They can't however determine ownership or ownership relationships if you use private domain registration.

I would like to add my 2 cents on this, since I see various posts where other people also mention "Google results" in relation to gauging competition from a SEO perspective.

When you're checking Google results, the results that matter are the Intitle:"keyword here" results, regular searches in quotes don't matter...doesn't give you the relevant information you need.

Page titles is one of the most important SEO real estate you have direct control over, the page title of a page is what weighs heavily in Google's algo.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

Lots of results when you do a Intitle search means a lot of pages that are purposely optimized for the phrase you would be chasing as well (And a lot of people working on strengthening their backlink profiles), a good portion can also be pages that have the keyword(s) you're chasing coincidentally.

It all depends on the niche.

In the end the best backlink profile ranks...so do a regular search like a normal user would and review your top ten competitors backlink profiles.

Don't let a lot of Intitle search results intimidate you, if you have a plan to get a stronger backlink profile those numbers mean nothing.

equity78

post of the day imo

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sdsinc

We need threads like this once in a while

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Jaco

Actually, no, successful domain buying and value investing aren't "polar opposite strategies" and I definitely don't think that there is a lot of luck, save for freak occurrences like bing.com coming online and people who owned names utilizing "bing" coupled with a viable keyword- or something similar.

It all depends on what level you're playing the game at, but people who are transacting in higher caliber names have a whole host of valuation metrics that go into their decision process, and a lot of those decisions to ultimately pull the trigger and buy are based on an assessment of hard value- "value" usually being a function of prospect earning performance, or what they believe to be good 'pot odds' for an end-user gamble.
Not "hunch". Not "feeling". Not "dreams". Not "chance"- not even just cpc, volume or traffic. There's much more to it...

You will generally find that people who win at this game are doing so by utilizing data metrics, while the vast vast vast vast vast majority who fail are playing by "hunch", or, relying on "luck". Maybe a portion of them would be capable of making good decisions if they knew how to go about it, but for the large majority, even if you took them by the hand and showed them how to use hard-data in appraising name value (beyond cpc and volume), they still wouldn't 'get it'.

Several tenets of value investing are straight in-play with successful domain buying... At least amongst those people who don't suck at it. I sucked at it too, once upon a time. We all did. The goal is to get better. If you continue to write most of it off to 'luck', it will preclude you from seeking out meaningful ways to improve your decision-making process.

The losers, yes.

And please, with the shoe-horning of anecdotes about someone who sold a .pro for an extravagant profit, as if that somehow remotely justifies anything about that lame TLD. It's almost as if you're self-rationalizing when you do that. That sort of mentality is precisely what keeps people buying lotto tickets, playing slot machines and registering crap in ANY tld. Based on what you elaborated above, that mentality seems to exist to a degree with you. Just understand that it doesn't with others, and those people are generally the ones who win.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

(IMO, this most definitely IS a five star thread.
The discussion may be robust and the occasional jab may be tossed (including a couple of mine ) but we're all big boys and girls here. This is precisely the sort of discussion that leads to critical examination, which is always a good thing.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

Let the peanut gallery decide who is right and who is wrong based on the logic of our respective positions. On a "domaining" forum, I think you can expect a visceral, emotion-based slant t to one side, but either way, these are questions that all participants in this industry should be asking themselves)

oldtimer

Domainers operate at different levels and have different strategies, it’s hard to come up with one formula that covers everyone. As the domain Industry matures one has to be a lot more creative, talented, knowledgeable, skillful, and courageous in order to be successful at this game. I think that some of the newer domainers who have managed to become successful in today’s environment actually deserve more credit than those who became millionaires in the old days when a lot of good names were available for the picking. As for who’s doing the right thing today, we should accept that there are many different routes to success when it comes to domaining, as I mentioned before domainers should take advantage of all the proven and legitimate ways that are available to them in order to get to the top, to argue that one way is the real thing and that all the other ways are somewhat inferior is simply a notion that is perceived out of arrogance, jealousy, and the need to protect one’s interest.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

PS: this is just a general observation and not directed at anyone in specific.

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Domainace

Dongsman, you clearly have little patience for the losers, yet you've chosen a notorious loser for your avatar. I'm not trying to be critical, but I am curious.

Now, if you're not insulted, I'd like to pursue your comments a bit further. You said "not even just cpc, volume or traffic. There's much more to it..."

You see, this is where it's easy to get lost and go way off track. Anyone can take a formula and go at it:

1- Exact searches over 1,000/3,000/5,000 month? Check
2- Plenty of ads in the sidebar? Check
3- Cost per click over $1? Check
etc, etc, etc

(And while plenty of Google returns when you search for a name can be a bad thing if you are planning to develop and compete, it is a good thing if you just want to flip to an end user. It means plenty of people in a tough market who could use a good domain for an extra boost.)

These are all easy to check and quantify. The problem comes into the "much more to it" part. Because that's where the deals are to be found.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

Rick Schwartz says its all nouns and adjectives, as in organicbeef. He also says that, in the end, you have to go with the gut feeling. That, I think, is the "much more to it" part. And the problem with the those is gut feelings are worthless unless you've learned or understand the basics.

So, I'm in agreement that meaningless brandables are basically lottery tickets. Fun, but not a business model. (Imagine trying to sell a $1 lottery ticket for $100 because it "may" be worth a million.)

But, what is the "much more to it" part? Exactly? I think much of it simply comes down to knowing what will sell in a certain price range, and what big buyers will pay for.

In other words....the gut. But a gut that has been trained by trading domains and watching auctions daily for a few years at least.

Does anyone have anything more specific than that?

Or is it all just.... je ne sais quoi?

akcampbell

I think there is a significant element of luck involved in domaining. That doesn't mean you don't need skill in the buying and selling, you certainly do, but luck plays a part. Your example of Bing.com is a case where the buying/selling/luck ratio is 1%/1%/98% but domain sales history is littered with examples of domains selling for more than their inherent value because companies have invested in a brand without having the domain or for other contentious, murky, unexplained reasons; for example, iReport.com $750,000, Tandberg.com $1.5m, Flowers.mobi, $200,000, cc.cc $70,000.

To sell a domain for a high price you have to have something that somebody with alot of money wants. Any metrics you use in assessing the earnings potential of a domain name can't accurately predict the wallet thickness of somebody who takes a shine to a domain. To close a high price sale, you need luck in extracting the maximum price somebody will pay. It's partly luck that they really want the domain and have a pile of cash to pay for it. Of course, you can use metrics to improve your chances of identifying these but luck is ever present. mid 90s .com domainers had luck on their side in terms of when they developed their obsession for domains.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

You talk alot about assessing earning potential but the core earnings potential of a domain is type-in traffic and you would think if there's alot of type-in traffic the current owner would have got round to parking the domain and is watching the money roll in. If they are making $1,000-$10,000 a year in clicks they are going to charge a buyer for the cash flow, metrics won't help you get the domain cheap. My experience is the vast majority of domains don't get much type in volume, the ones that do are closely held, coveted and traded for alot of money. The earnings potential of domains that don't have type in traffic are largely correlated with the skills of the developer - backlinks, SEO, content, design, originality, functionality and so on.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

I don't think there are many important domain metrics you could mention on this thread that most people here won't have already used a variation of. I use alot of metrics in my .pro domain selection, maybe more than .com domainers use because fit is critical for alternative extensions and assessing fit opens up new angles to analyse. I use composites of metrics, benchmarking of those composites, all sort of things. But they are only a tool, I don't attach the same Jedi significance to them that you do, I don't think I am using metrics that most other domainers haven't thought of, and at the end of the day, say with my last .pro buy, Game.pro, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that Game works well with .pro. Let me give you another example, I hold several premium .info domains, I didn't need much in the way of metrics to tell me that Rates.info is a nice .info to hold. My buying logic was banks compete on rates, people want information on rates, the ten largest banks in the world have shareholder equity of $1000 billion. That was pretty much the extent of it, not a light saber in sight.

You mock my interest in .pro which is fine, all my .pro anecdotes are meant to show is that NP members do make nice sales from alternative extensions, often more than once, and in 100+ fold multiples of their costs. That domain registants choose not to sell their domains at prices that suit you or anybody else is not delusional, it's just their strategy. That somebody sold a .com for $5m in 2009 might be because they didn't sell it in 1997 for $100,000 when it was only worth $20,000. You'll like this but if I don't develop Rates.info, I plan to sell it for $1m to a bank at some point in the next 10-20 years. If Travel.info sold for $116,000 in 2007, I don't see why I can't sell Rates.info for $1m in 2027. To you that's delusional, but not to me.

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snoop

I think this is true, the successful people in this industry are those that rely on a business model which delivers fairly consisent revenue, typically from parking and sales or from some kind of domain service business, as opposed to relying on a couple of lucky sales to save the say.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

The people relying on luck are generally not making money. Akcampbell brings up examples of individual sales in .pro though that means nothing without considering an overall portfolio.

RTM

A 4 star thread, although it certainly will not result in consensus. I for one disagree that domain investing types can be categorically described as delusional. Domaining is still in the infancy stage, although it obviously has matured in the last 10 or so years.

Ultimately, it's market driven. We're questioning the value of selling prices in part of the global economic downturn of the last few years.

It boils down to how much market demand there is for domains - which are just a part of an online strategy for a business. Right now the VC money is relatively tight, and as such some may consider certain "asking prices" "delusional..... but perhaps those domain holders are simply not interested in selling during a downturn.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

Warren B. also has oft been recognized as a "buy and hold" investor. That certainly can be applied to domain investments...

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adinfinite

SExcellent thread. As a relative new comer i'm just "soaking" it up much like I soak up F. schillings' dead blog. I would love to hear from the guy that started the thread at this point. Just to see if his position has changed.

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dnbknowledge

Yeah, that Warren Buffet guy is overrated. I can't believe he's not into .pro domains, some people just don't "get it". Now if you'll excuse me, I gotta go register some pronounceable LLLLLL dot coms. The buyout is just around the corner brbkthx.

InsanerDomainer

I like this thread much better than the "Dominers are BORING" thread for some reason.

What do the niche developers think of using hyphenated domain names? Another one of those things that hurts domain resale value, but not necessarily development potential.

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tristanperry

I dislike both since they're both massive generalisations
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

Developers seem to think that hyphens in domains doesn't harm SEO. Google have never confirmed nor denied this, though, IMO.

I personally think it wouldn't harm SEO much (if at all), although of course humans will be the ones earning you revenue - and humans may well be put off if they visit a site with an "odd" looking domain.

bobbarato

Good point - I would speculate that there is a tradeoff between domaining vs doing the full fledged business - namely the management. Domaining is like being a playboy - running a business is like being a parent. :-) The skill sets/desires may not overlap.

mwzd

????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

Quote of the year!

Development, minisite or full scale, is not as easy as it sounds, specially for people who're wondering whether they need to learn php to edit the html of the site.

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oldtimer

It’s probably true that not all donainers have the required skills, motivation, time, and financial resources to make a full fledged business out of their top domains, but we also need to consider the fact that not all business people know or care about how to get the right domains and in many cases have overlooked the opportunity to secure the right domain, and so why should domainers just surrender their best domains to end-users for peanuts (relative to what the domain can make in a lifetime as a full fledged business), domainers that don’t know how to run a full fledged business can always negotiate having a certain share in the final product (business) in addition to any initial purchase price of the domain. Now I am not saying that this should be done for all domains, but it’s a strategy that is worth considering when it comes to the top tier commercial generic domains that are a once in a lifetime opportunity. IMO

PS: by the way we all know now who the real losers are.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=614624

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