[soggyindo]

we could always do something like this

[Cyberian]

Bottom line as I see it, people will let their own ethics guide them on this issue.

You can banter back and forth all you want, legal or not, ethical or not, profitable or not... but having NamePros condoning this, allowing this, promoting this as the catalyst of what IMO is shill bidding, plain and simple, would be a black eye on our forum.

Profit does not justify... period.

Cy

[Jeff]

I posted my concerns and deep cautions earlier in this thread, but in summary ... I agree with Kenny ^ above, IMHO.

When I hear or see (or catch wind ... ) of other venues having several active "Please send these domains to Sedo auction!" threads, I want to cringe!

I would never want that ... as part of our #1 Namepros Experience™
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/domain-name-discussion/461518-how-about-sticky-thread-send-sedo.html
-Jeff

[Red Rock]

Originally Posted by ~ Cyberian ~

promoting this as the catalyst of what IMO is shill bidding, . Cy

Wikipedia - Schill
Contents - Schills in auctions

First paragraph...
Shills, or "potted plants", are sometimes employed in auctions. Driving prices up with phony bids, they seek to provoke a bidding war among other participants. Often they are told by the seller precisely how high to bid, as the seller actually pays the price (to himself, of course) if the item does not sell, losing only the auction fees.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=461518

THAT is auction schill bidding!
That is NOT what we have HERE.
We dont even have an ez way to get our auction started
without asking for the initial bid.

[Len]

I don't know how this can be percieved as shill bidding?? There are millions of domains on Sedo, most of which never see the light of day! All this would do is bring forward some of those domains for members and guests to consider bidding on at a starting price of $60......which is infact the minimum required by sedo anyway! As previously stated only those who think the domain is worth at least $60 are going to bid...simple as that. You are not, imo, going to see sedo innundated with crap as it would get no bids and the member who initiated the auction would end up with it!
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=461518
A section for this should not be seen as "begging" for bidders, it is simply putting forward domains for consideration that may never otherwise be seen. I see absolutely no harm whatsoever being done to the reputation of this forum and sedo themselves should consider this as being a win win situation for them as they are going to be skimming off their 10% no matter what the eventual selling price.

[Cyberian]

Here is an idea... why dont we ask member Sedo (Keith) what he (they) think about this?

The integrity of NamePros is my only concern here.

Now, this thread is starting to heat me up, and before I go off (Jeff, remember the GoDaddy Loophole thread a few years ago?) I think I'll bow out of this before I say some things people might regret.

[Damion]

Considering this idea as shill bidding is ludicrous, someone would be willing to take the risk to have their domain let go for a certain minimum amount that will be used to initiate having the domain on auction.

Or see a number of bids that will either match his expectations or even exceed.
Let's not try to make it more then it really is...

[Electric-Shadow]

Stupid idea imo, its shill bidding, how is it fair on other people who wait months to get offers so they can finally send their domains to auction, yet people who get others to send their domains to auction by bidding are (putting it bluntly) being dishonest.

Infact i can't really beleive the thread starter suggested it, just post names you have listed for sale at sedo in the external auctions area, correct me if im wrong on this.

[Red Rock]

Originally Posted by ~ Cyberian ~

Here is an idea... why dont we ask member Sedo (Keith) what he (they) think about this? The integrity of NamePros is my only concern here. Now, this thread is starting to heat me up, and before I go off (Jeff, remember the GoDaddy Loophole thread a few years ago?) I think I'll bow out of this before I say some things people might regret.

I think the HEAT, might be what it takes to make some progress on such a SIMPLE, & honest request.

????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=461518
If you have contacts w/the Big Dogs at Sedo,
I believe we would all LOVE to hear their response!

Thank You!

[Jeff]

I would very much like to hear from Keith / Sedo on this matter, as well!

Thanks for the input and for staying cool, everyone!
-Jeff

[Len]

Originally Posted by Jeff

I would very much like to hear from Keith / Sedo, as well! ????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=461518 Thanks for the input and for staying cool, everyone! -Jeff

I think that's what it's going to take to settle this.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Len

I think that's what it's going to take to settle this.

It will surely be a consideration ... along with all of the points made thus far, and even after Sedo posts IMHO. I am unsure that Sedo's word will, in the end, necessarily be the same as for Namepros Staff™ and Management©, in my view. I would always support that of the latter ... as these are the fine folks that, at the end of the day (and each and every day!), KNOW what's best for the site, brand and Community™!
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=461518

-Jeff

[Damion]

Originally Posted by Electric-Shadow

Stupid idea imo, its shill bidding, how is it fair on other people who wait months to get offers so they can finally send their domains to auction, yet people who get others to send their domains to auction by bidding are (putting it bluntly) being dishonest.

In that case people paying for a featured listing are then also unfair?
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=461518
It's not shill bidding and it's not dishonest, people that will make the initial bid are interested to buy that domain at that minimum price, in fact a good chance they will bid more if they feel it would be worth more then the min bid.

Quote:

Infact i can't really beleive the thread starter suggested it, just post names you have listed for sale at sedo in the external auctions area, correct me if im wrong on this.

I don't think you understand the concept of the OP's idea...
What you're suggesting is kind of pointless because your domain would first need to already be in auction to post in the external auctions section.

This idea is just another promotion tool, but with a potential risk to let go of the domain for a minimal price. Having your domain lined up in the auction line raises more awareness then paying for a featured listing.

It's just the domain owners choice to take the risk for letting the domain go at a minimal price.

[squid]

I think in the case that reece posted about earlier, where somebody has put up say "cat.com" and posts it on namepros and people bid because they want the name - what's wrong with that?

What is wrong is people bidding JUST to get the Seller more money, that's down right selfish/stupid etc. But bidding because you like the domain, nothing wrong with that...

[Electric-Shadow]

I read over the OP again incase i misread anything, but it still seems relatively pointless when there is allready an external auctions/sales section we dont need another one imo , most np staff i think would agree.

[timphelan]

Saying this is dishonest, or shill bidding is just not correct. It's simply the domainer taking an initiative to put their domains out in front of other domainers, which is what Namepros is all about. All we need are some guidelines to make this work.

Geesh, how is this different from starting an auction here in the auction section and saying bidding starts at $50 or $100? I guess you consider that shilling also by the looks of your very broad, liberal definition of the term.

This is just saying, "If you want to get this domain possibly for $60 you can bid on it at Sedo and I'll send it to auction."

Wow, it's not that complicated really.

Originally Posted by Electric-Shadow

Stupid idea imo, its shill bidding, how is it fair on other people who wait months to get offers so they can finally send their domains to auction, yet people who get others to send their domains to auction by bidding are (putting it bluntly) being dishonest. ????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=461518 Infact i can't really beleive the thread starter suggested it, just post names you have listed for sale at sedo in the external auctions area, correct me if im wrong on this.

[RJ]

Some good points made here. Please keep the discussion open. We'll have an official word on this soon.

[Red Rock]

Originally Posted by timphelan

Wow, it's not that complicated really.

LOL,
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=461518

I didnt think so, either.
Apparantly, this simple request seems to have
everyone thinking way too negatively.

Everyone,
THIS IS NOT SCHILL BIDDING!
You Bid,
You Win,
You Buy!
Done!

But it has to start SOMEWHERE,
Why not here, in a nice, neat and orderly thread,
section, subsection, etc.?
It sure beats a bunch of individual threads getting lost after an hour.

No Bad can come out of this.
Only good for everybody!

Originally Posted by -RJ-

Some good points made here. Please keep the discussion open. We'll have an official word on this soon.

Hey RJ!
Thx for leaving this discussion open!
And thank you for thinking about this as an added option
to our community!

[Len]

Originally Posted by Electric-Shadow

I read over the OP again incase i misread anything, but it still seems relatively pointless when there is allready an external auctions/sales section we dont need another one imo , most np staff i think would agree.

I really don't see your point here? The external auctions thread is for auctions that are already running at Sedo, Ebay etc. This would not be the same thing! It would be a section where you could basically "showcase" your domain with the possibility that someone would think it was worth, at the very least, the $60 to send it to auction. If it's not worth that to anyone they won't bid! Simple as that. What is wrong with that?

[Damion]

Originally Posted by Electric-Shadow

I read over the OP again incase i misread anything, but it still seems relatively pointless when there is allready an external auctions/sales section we dont need another one imo , most np staff i think would agree.

Your argument implies that having a send to auction section and a external auction/sales section is the same?
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=461518
But it's not.

When you have someone interested in a domain of yours, you receive a bid via PM - you counter offer if you feel it's too low, you may or may not received a increased offer back in return.

At some point the person doing the offering just don't want to bid any higher, you're in a impasse...

The person bidding on your domain does not want to bid any higher, and only want your domain for his/hers last offer.
You feel it has more market value.

A good alternative would be to send the domain to auction, this happens on Sedo's platform as well as on other forums, including NP.

If no more bids will be made, the initial bidder will obtain the domain at his/hers highest offer...and you got the chance to test the market to have the market determine its end value at that time.

You have to agree with me that's good and fair business right?

Now with a Send To Auction section the owner takes a larger risk, he/she leaves out the negotiation and accepts sending the domain at a minimal set bid and it's being done publicly...not through the private message system.

It's exactly the same legitimate scenario and its only difference is that the owner is willing to take a larger risk.

That's all there is to it.

It's not shill bidding.
It's not dishonest or unfair.

It's what is happening already on Sedo and Namepros and DNForum and other avenues.

People negotiate and then send a domain to auction, this is no different except for leaving the negotiation out of the picture.

[Jingles]

Originally Posted by timphelan

Saying this is dishonest, or shill bidding is just not correct. It's simply the domainer taking an initiative to put their domains out in front of other domainers, which is what Namepros is all about. All we need are some guidelines to make this work. Geesh, how is this different from starting an auction here in the auction section and saying bidding starts at $50 or $100? I guess you consider that shilling also by the looks of your very broad, liberal definition of the term. This is just saying, "If you want to get this domain possibly for $60 you can bid on it at Sedo and I'll send it to auction." Wow, it's not that complicated really.

I totally agree, especially with your last sentence.

If I was some kind of scamming, frauding, shill bidding fool (which I'm not) and I wanted one of my "buddies" to place a fake bid for me, I'd just call them up on the phone and tell them to do it. Why first post it on a forum and then contact them about it?? I don't quite understand.

All of my names listed at Sedo have the same description set up..."Other names for sale at Sedo...$60 sends them to auction" followed by a list of my names. (seen this same set up alot there). So are you saying that if some random person comes along, likes my name and puts a $60 bid in on it then THAT is shill bidding too?

I'm not looking to "lure" someone into buying my names dishonestly, I just want the chance to be able to throw them out there for more to see because over at Sedo it's really easy to feel lost in the crowd

[-REECE-]

I've countered seller's offers to me on Sedo multiple times in the past with "If you really think it's worth more than my bid, send it to auction."

That's essentially what the whole idea here is. Sedo is one of the best ways to get a fair price on your domain 95%+ of the time. Bargains do happen, but they occur far more often at TDNAM, Snap, and Namejet than I ever see at Sedo.

The potential buyer and seller are taking a risk. The potential buyer is sending the domain to Sedo where it may very well end up costing him even more to win in the end than if he just submitted a PM offer and tried to purchase the domain right here on Namepros. The seller is sending a domain that is worth more than $60 to auction where he might only get $60 for it in the end.

As DomainRaiders has said -- who's honestly stupid enough (friend or not) to send a domain worth under $60 to auction knowing very well their bid is legally binding (how legally binding... err, I won't go there)? If people really want to shill bid, get yourself a proxy IP, become better friends with your neighbour, hire a college student,... There are tons of ways to shill already and tbh we're a long, long way from real transparency in this industry... Nobody is going to tell me that at least a very large proportion of sales that fall through aren't the direct result of shill bidding. It's simply too hard to verify people's identities cost-effectively on the Internet... Ebay has had Titanium Powersellers in the past who've been found to have been shilling... It's a widespread problem not limited to Sedo and one which I really don't see Namepros making any difference on either way.

As elucidated above, there are many very easy ways to shill bid already. I think it's more honest to ask a friend to simply send my domain to auction with a $60 bid -- this is widespread on Namepros already and I'll admit to having done this on close to 100 occasions. A thread similar to the proposed one would take this one step further away from supposed shill bidding by removing the "friend element". Now you wouldn't even have to ask a friend to submit your domain to auction... Just post your domain, say you'd like an auction started, and see if there's any takers. No pretty please necessary, no "if you start my auction I'll start one for you", no "NP$ + rep for starting my auction", in short, no favors or incentives (which really is the major catalyst of shill bidding).
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=461518

People can believe what they want... Shill bidding will continue to happen anyway with or without this thread. Look how many LLL.com and LL.com sales fall through. In the case of LL.coms, it's above 50%. Why? I'm not going to start naming names, but there are certainly a few good reasons that come to mind...

Existing owners of similar names trying to inflate prices by placing bids they have no intent on honoring...

Sellers wanting to see how much they can milk out of an interested buyer...

As I said before, there really is no transparency and anyone who really thinks there exists even a sliver of it is looking at the domain industry through some very rosey pink "optimist" glasses.

[Electric-Shadow]

However, id like to add that if people ask someone to bid, THEN it's shill bidding, but if you dont ask them, then it would be ok, however advertising with the specific intent to send a domain to auction may be as good as shill bidding.

I think now would be a good time for me to leave the thread lol

[Red Rock]

Reece,
Wow,
Thx alot for the VERY truthful Post!
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=461518
Coming from YOU, people will definitely listen!
You are a very inspirational Domain Pro!
You definitely have the contacts, and dont need this,
so it is extra Professional of you to be pushing for a change,
for all of us here!

Now with that being said...
Lets take this Class A1 community here (NamePros),
and set a new positive example!

All of the people that dont know the ins and outs (Me),
or that dont have 20 members phone #'s on speed dial...
Shouldnt we all get a fair shot to see if some of what we own
can make the "Big Show"?

Right now, the set-up is to individualistic,
and the Sales for Sedo threads get lost in a heartbeat.
It is set-up to keep the old standards of pm-ing
or calling your buddy to kick off the auction, still.
Do we want to keep that old unprofessional standard in motion,
or do we want to create something new, inspirational, and hopeful
for all, in one nice location here?

Cant we be Pro-active, and make a Killer Showcase,
that will teach alot of people the RIGHT way to do this?
And guess what, because it will be a fellow NP-er,
We will feel extra good about it!

[Michael]

Originally Posted by Electric-Shadow

However, id like to add that if people ask someone to bid, THEN it's shill bidding, but if you dont ask them, then it would be ok, however advertising with the specific intent to send a domain to auction may be as good as shill bidding. I think now would be a good time for me to leave the thread lol

But as Reece said, this proposed thread is NOT about ASKING people to bid on your domains, it's about telling them that if they do submit a bid of any kind you'll push it to auction.

The bottom line is this thread would be to increase visibility for a domain so it can get that initial bid required to push to auction. It is not about asking for favors.

I could go around Sedo making thousands of $60 offers hoping to hit a few that are willing to push to auction, and the only thing this thread would do would be to streamline the process and not piss off everyone who wasn't interested in taking that risk.

????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=461518
I see absolutely nothing wrong with this idea. Some people here, intentionally or otherwise, are distorting the motive of this thread by making it seem like the seller would be asking for favors when it is really just saying "Hey, I'm selling ABC.com and if I get ANY offer on it I'll push it to auction."