This argument is somewhat valid, but also sort of misses the point. Why should an above-board company need to include such God-awful provisions in a legalese document in the first place? Such extreme demands are beyond the scope of protecting themselves against outside sales during and immediately after the auction. It boils down to an unscrupulous way to exert control over sellers who simply want to auction a domain, nothing more....and are willing to pay Moniker a fair fee to do so.
Instead, it's a sneaky way to manipulate a situation so that they stand to profit from a seller's ignorance of the TOS. And, yes, you can say ignorance is no excuse, but in my mind if the nonsense clauses weren't in the TOS to begin with, if a company like Moniker could be trusted in the first place, there would be no need for scrutinizing their TOS, and the general outrage of most people who really want to use Moniker...who want to trust them, would quickly fade away.
I myself have never actually used Moniker in the past and therefore have nothing to base the TOS that I recently read with any past TOS that they may have had beforehand.
Why, to protect their arses, of course. But you knew that, right?
Of course, it's one thing to know, it's another to accept. One can always read
or ask questions before jumping in, though, before possibly agreeing to it.
I guess it boils down to how one feels about it, depending on what side of the
fence one is on. This contract, though, isn't necessarily any different from all
the others in terms of...hmm...not sure what's the right word...
Note that the contract here is for their auction service. If you're going to hold
this "against" Moniker while not considering their registration agreement, then
you might want to read other registrars' as they have similar terms anyway.
Exactly. I've been a domain name owner since 1995 and an investor since 1996. It became clear pretty quick that there are only three types of people making money in the world domain names:
(1) people that own good business-oriented domain names;
(2) scammers
(3) people that make money from helping the first two types of people
Of course, type one and three are often a subset of type two.
One good thing is that I do believe people are becoming more sophisticated. And now that click business valuations have all but collapsed, many "domainers" are realizing they were sold a bill of goods.
Unfortunately, as these domainers restructure, the new people drawn in by today's financial despair (and the real success experienced by the owners of good domain names) are likely to be paying some expensive dues as they speed around the learning curve.
I say unfortunately, not just because it extends the "shady and misleading" reputation of the domain name "industry", but also because it makes it much more difficult for investors that actually conduct end user sales to real businesses (as opposed to reselling to each other).
Anyway, yes, I laughed out loud when they sent that contract to me.
I haven't seen a moniker rep active on the forums for a while weeks now... they have come under fire for some accusations of netsol style whois checks recently but nobody came to answer, now this, which is, frankly old news, but still, you'd think they would have something to say.
I sincerely hope the oversee.net takeover won't ruin this superb registrar, but I am sorry to say a few alarm bells are ringing...
All I can say is I am glad there is Fabulous for a domain registrar and that the domain auction market is becoming much more competitve, thus giving more options and reducing their monopoly.
Right, it doesn't give anyone the privlege/power of abuse.
There isn nothing wrong with my comment. Just supporting Monte. How many sales would you have seen had he not been conducting auctions ?
Agree with you here.
__________________
† Did We Know That There Aren't Really Thousands Of Bands Who Might Be Interesting, We Will Get To Deleting All Bands That Aren't In Flames, Cannibal Corpse, Morbid Angel, Deicide †
In business in general, contracts are usually negotiated. I am sure that if you have good domain names for sale, you can modify that contract and submit it to them, negotiating for the best deal for yourself.
They may ignore you, but then again, if they want your business, they may be open to negotiation.
But, as part of that negotiation, they would probably require you to keep silent about the process, so others don't reject the contract out of hand.
Think about it, they would obviously want to be involved in high profile auctions, but at the same time, I doubt that someone owning, say, a domain like business dot com would ever consider giving them 20%, that would be silly.
It's not a contract until both sides agree to the listing of terms. So, edit the contract and submit it for their perusal.
20 % of 350 million. The broker will be a multi millionaire. In this case the commission would be 5 % or less.
__________________
† Did We Know That There Aren't Really Thousands Of Bands Who Might Be Interesting, We Will Get To Deleting All Bands That Aren't In Flames, Cannibal Corpse, Morbid Angel, Deicide †
It is one thing for a company to try to protect their ligitimate interest, but it is a different matter when they try to take advantage of their customers by gaining undue control over them specially when it is not necessary for the ligitimate operation of their business. If they are willing to negotiate a contract with you that is fair on an individual basis then why not have that from the start to begin with, everyone would understand if they came up with different commission scales or different time periods for exclusivity of sales depending on the value or the reserve that is determined for the domain, but even then they still don’t have the right to tie you up indefinitely.
And then there is still the matter of not replying to emails when you have questions about the auctions, if they are going to make so much on commissions why not hire a few more people so that they won’t have to ignore their customers emails.
The problem is that there is nothing at all reciprocal in their agreements - either on the buying or selling side.
Here are some personal experiences:
1. At the last traffic auction, I purchased 2 domains with someone else. It took 3 1/2 weeks after payment was made for them to just push the domains to us. They had been sitting in their escrow account all that time. It took MULTIPLE emails to get the domains pushed.
2. At the fall Traffic, I had a 2 word generic domain in silent. At Traffic itself, I asked my rep to please add the traffic information and other details which had been submitted along with the domain. No go. I had had 2 prospective end user buyers contact me prior to the auction with interest in buying the domain. I introduced them to a Moniker contact since I was under contract. One did not receive any word back and just commented to me that it was unprofessional and they'd find an alternate domain name. The other had been told he'd need to pay in order to place a bid at silent. The domain went unsold - thankfully because the reserve was well under market value for the domain and a fraction of what either end user would have paid.
It's a shame because they are in such a great position but unless their communication system is improved upon and they actually start to work ON sellers' behalfs, they are going to have problems ahead IMHO.
This thread is the top sticky, started five days ago, has 86 posts, 1800 views, is a pretty strong condemation of their practices and, not one reply of justification or 'thanks for your concerns', or..... anything! Perhaps...... "Another one bites the dust!"???
Just a reminder folks - if any of you have ever auctioned anything through Christie's or Sotheby's, then you would fall off your chair if you think our agreement is that bad. The agreement is pretty standard and covers and protects your interests as well as ours. think of this as a real-estate sale and then this agreement will not look so bad. Exclusivity is common and accepted if we are going to draw thousands of live and online bidders at each of these events. Non Circumvent agreements are also standard so that no buyer goes directly to a seller when we introduced those parties through our efforts - again standard protection...and if you get a sale as a result of our efforts either this year or next, what is the real issue here if we were responsible in any way for that transaction. Auto renewal is also standard on just about anything you sign these days, but we do allow you to strike that clause if you do not want us to keep marketing and selling your domains.
now with more ways to market and sell your domains than any other organization - live, silent, extended, online, snapnames, marketplace, private, and direct corporate domain sales efforts, i would say your best bet is to work with the process. Obviously names have to be good, desirable and reserves set properly to get best results so please work with your Sr. Account Execs here and you should be good to go.
Also - regarding auction processing, it does take time when you deal with multiple buyers and sellers of names, epp codes, and many different registrars. From now on, we are gong to basically require that seller names be transferred to Moniker if they are selected for auction - this will speed up processing by weeks once funds are received in escrow. Snapnames did this at their last auction and it worked well.
regarding commissions, Christies and sotheby's charge 35%. Our commissions will be moving up to 20% very soon as we will be offering more channels to sell domains through our network. This is the same percentage we already charge for our private sales.
submission process will soon be more automated with status of your submission, acceptance verifications and what auction accepted to.
and finally - we have NEVER taken advantage of our customers or this auction process that we brought to the entire industry. although its not been perfect, it has proven that domains are assets, have a market, and it legitimized our industry one more level that was not here prior. Ever sale we make and now that any other auction makes as a result of our creation of the live domain auciton, helps all of you regardless if you participate in our auctions or not. Your assets are growing in value as a result of our efforts....so becare what you are knocking.
we are improving the process and will continue to do so through customer feedback and results.
Thank you for your support.
__________________
Monte Cahn
Founder/President - Moniker.com & SnapNames.com
Monte@Moniker.com
O - 954-984-8445
I started this post monte after I got a take it or leave it response from one of your guys. And you know who he is since he told you about this thread. I knew that sooner or later you would have to make an appearance here to defend yourself.
As far as 2 years protections goes.....that a deal killer.. I am a realtor and we are lucky to get 90 days. And its rarely enforced.
If someone were to see my domain name and didnt want to pay the reserve today, but 1 year from now, for whatever reason, better cash flow, more necessity, decides hes gonna call me on the phone.....you think you should get a cut? I dont think so dearie. One or two years later would hardly qualify as deal circumvention. Give our pea brains a little more credit than that.
A very small minority may try to beat the system, as they do in real estate, but we are talking a number in the 1-3 percent range, by my best guess. Is your profit margin that fine? I doubt it.
And how about you pay out of your pocket for air time or trade magazines like I do as a REALTOR? Its only fair if you are seeking 15-20% commission. I do it and my commission is only 3% to 6%.
BTW thats very humble of you to compare yourself to Southeby (est. 1744) or Christies (est. 1766). I think I see where you are coming from now.
Steve
P.S. I question weather Florida Statutes would even allow for a 2 year protection after the close of an auction.
__________________ Those who accept mediocrity will never be disappointed.
Last edited by pixelpadre : 03-31-2008 at 11:37 AM.
No, he found out via my e-mail this morning to my Moniker rep to ask for feedback from someone there. She's among the best and most responsive customer reps I've ever come across in any industry, so I'm predisposed to feeling positive about Moniker.
And for what it's worth, I do believe that Moniker's contract language isn't intended to take advantage of domainers.
Here is the text of the last message that I sent to my rep at Moniker after being described as having bad things to say about Moniker.
Its not bad mouthing....if you read everything I had to say you would know
that. I simply made others aware of the terms and conditions.
Everything I had to say was objective, nothing subjective. This is how
issues get resolved in america. People throw it out on the news channel and
things happen really quickly. As long as there is unchecked onerous
behavior by corporations, there will be grassroots movements for change.
I have effected change, with a simple phone call or a short letter to the
right people, all of my life. If we all did this, life would be much better
for all of us. Unfortunately, most people dont want to be bothered with
involving themselves, others believe that they can do nothing. But I
learned at a very young age that a simple frown can cause major changes, for
the good.
If you think that I am the first one to cut and run after viewing your terms
and conditions, you are seriously underestimating your business losses. You
may get 100,000 domains for each auction. Would you rather have 100,000
$2,000 domains or 2,000 $200,000 domains?
The quality of your domains is deteriorating in my humble opinion. And that
is directly attributed to your staggering demands. No intelligent person
would agree to your terms as they currently stand. IN the long run Moniker
is only hurting themselves by devaluing domains as a result of low quality
domain name sales. I reviewed your last t.r.a.f.f.i.c. results and I was
totally unimpressed in what was listed and how much they actually brought
in. I am amazed that people actully attend these conventions for such low
grade domain names. Moniker's best times may be behind them with more and
more competition appearing.
If you expect people to agree to your terms then you better be prepared to
advertise in major magazines and on tv with the risk of no sale......just as
I do with the homes I have to sell as a REALTOR. I think Moniker would
never risk cash outlay on the chance of a sale. Moniker simply wants the
money and lots of it.
If you can't hear what folks are sayin in this thread, then your greed has
simply blinded you.
Steve
__________________ Those who accept mediocrity will never be disappointed.
You left out the point of that contextual question: That the provisions go far beyond the reasonable boundaries necessary to cover their ass, which was the whole point of the post... but you knew that, right?
__________________ A good domain name is worth more than money.
I've got domains up the Wazoo...wanna buy some?
This is comparable to saying "If you think our used cars are bad you should go two car lots down the street, Now those are some REAL CLUNKERS" Is this what your trying to sell to the Domaining Community Monte, or any Person or Business that would like to Use your Very Well Known Live Auction Service?
No where in that Contract do I read anything that comes accross as protecting My Interests or the Interest of any Seller for that matter, it only Reads to Me as Protecting the Interest of the Attorney that wrote up the Contract, but then again that's just Me, and evidently there are quite a few others that feel the same way about your contract. I've never used your services prior, but You have a Please sign this contract if you wish to Proceed any further clause on your front door and it certainly doesn't come accross as very welcoming.
Usually when someone charges or expects a service percentage, the seller would actually get a service. Everyone is aware of your Auction Service, but what about Actual Customer Service Monte? No Consistency in your Customer Service if you read other posts other than Dag's Positive Experience with one of your Rep's.
this is your take, your contract however clearly doesn't come accross this way Monte.
Even more reason for the Attorney's that write up Contracts such as these, to reach in and legally acquire a piece of it.
And Even more Reason for the Domaining Community and Abroad to Scrutinize any Contracts written up that come accross as outlandish and unrealistic.
If your comparing Domains to Real Estate, and yet there are plenty of Real Estate Agents that are equally Scruntinizing your terms of service do you think we all should be greatful of your Auction Service and just deal with the terms that go along with it?
Please note that I do not want this contract to renew automatically for any domains that I might have submitted to your auctions and unless you change the contract to be fair to all sides involved I will not use your services in the future and I will not consider you a positive influence in the domain industry any longer.
