Help on inadvertent cybersquatting

Ergo · 03-04-2008, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by gooster

If I were talking about LLLs to invest in from 3character.com it would be:

LLL.com - Hold
LLL.net - Hold
LLL.org - Buy
LLL.biz - Sell
LLL.info - Hold
LLL.us - No experience

I would also add buy when everybody sell for cheap. I would buy more LLL.biz at low prices.

italiandragon · 03-04-2008, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by snoop

I very clearly stated that in my post,

"Interestingly lll.com saw only a $100 rise last month at the minimum level according to 3character.com,"
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/short-domain-discussion/436568-why-lll-coms-no-longer-safe.html

Not sure why you'd think it is "not really accurate" though.

Ask them/him , how the price them/him is calculated.

3 sales per month? 10 sales per month?

labrocca · 03-05-2008, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by gooster

If I were talking about LLLs to invest in from 3character.com it would be:

LLL.com - Hold
LLL.net - Hold
LLL.org - Buy
LLL.biz - Sell
LLL.info - Hold
LLL.us - No experience

Glad to read that...I want more LLL.biz domains for my portfolio...push those suckers down! If they go under $50 I will crap my pants and buy a couple dozen.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=436568

As for OP..I 100% agree that fear of a UDRP for a LLL.com is something every domainer should have. Statistically it's not 1 out of 262 since I can almost assure you that many domainers that hold LLL.com's hold more than one. Some hold dozens. That greatly increases their risk.

The question is also growth. This thread is about risk and any risk has to be measured against growth. Will the LLL.com's rise enough to make the risk viable? IMHO the answer is no and that's the nuts and bolts of this. For $8k you can find a generic dictionary name (even in .net) and park it and obtain revenue.

Pound · 03-05-2008, 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by Ergo

I would also add buy when everybody sell for cheap. I would buy more LLL.biz at low prices.

But the reason people are selling cheap (or at least relatively cheap to what they were like a year ago) is that these prices (in my opinion) will simply not rise again. .BIZ is simply such an ugly TLD that has no niche to fill.

Ergo · 03-05-2008, 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by Pound

Originally Posted by Ergo

I would also add buy when everybody sell for cheap. I would buy more LLL.biz at low prices.

But the reason people are selling cheap (or at least relatively cheap to what they were like a year ago) is that these prices (in my opinion) will simply not rise again. .BIZ is simply such an ugly TLD that has no niche to fill.

As to me biz is much more interesting than mobi. I've sold one .biz for 400$. And a lot of sites are on LLL.biz. Biz it's business.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=436568

Anyway. I'm not buying to buy .biz now. I'm waiting for them to go yet cheaper

snoop · 03-05-2008, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by italiandragon

Ask them/him , how the price them/him is calculated.

3 sales per month? 10 sales per month?

As far as I know they look at all publically available data, why would he use any particular number of sales, he'd just use whatever sales are known.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=436568

If you think the prices are not accurate what do you think is the minimum wholesale value of 3 letter .com's right now?

Originally Posted by Ergo

I would also add buy when everybody sell for cheap. I would buy more LLL.biz at low prices.

Prices that are lower than they were is not neccessarily an indicator of "cheap". Personally I think 3 letter .biz's are overpriced myself.

Juno · 03-05-2008, 05:39 AM

I'm new to the domain name business (2 weeks) and I'm sure there is a forum for people like me but since you are discussing cybersquatting, I thought I'd ask my two questions and see what advice you all can offer.

Question 1:
Problem: I registered some domain names that had, what I now believe, are trademarked names. I thought, when I registered them, that they were generic words like kleenex or bandaid. Now that I've read more online, I realize that they are probably trademarked. I've deleted all of those that still were within the deletion period but I'm stuck with the rest.

Solution? I don't see that there are any good solutions to my problem. Here are the options I see:

1) Contact the owner and offer to sell them--everything I've read says not to do this

2) Park them--which is currently what I've done but which I now realize could be seen as cybersquatting and acting in "bad faith".
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=436568

3) Have them lead to a blank page--I've discussed this with the register and if you don't direct your domains to parking service, the register parks them on their server. I've been unsuccessful getting them to direct incoming traffic to a blank page or an "Under Construction" page even though I've explained the situation. The only think I can think of is to change the DNS to some nonexistent server (that is, make up a name).

4) Sell them--which is what I badly want to do but which also could be seen as profiting off of a trademarked name.

5) Do nothing and let them expire--I'd be eating the cost of registering them but it is cheaper than a lawsuit. But, they won't expire for another 50 weeks!

It seems like a lose-lose situation and I'm not sure what to do. I know that ignorance is not accepted as an excuse but I really didn't know I was doing anything wrong (the names incorporate the name of the product--like "AmericanIdolFans"--and are not simply the product name...which I now know doesn't make any difference).

Your ideas on how to resolve this?

Question 2: Are proper names (places, people) under the same rules are trademarked products and services? I see place names for sale but it would seem like these trademark rules would apply to all proper names.

Thanks for any help you can offer. I realize this is an LLL.com discussion but I was led to this thread because of the topic and I hope someone might offer some advice any way.

Thanks, in advance, for any help you all can offer!

sdtrader · 03-05-2008, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by labrocca

As for OP..I 100% agree that fear of a UDRP for a LLL.com is something every domainer should have. Statistically it's not 1 out of 262 since I can almost assure you that many domainers that hold LLL.com's hold more than one. Some hold dozens. That greatly increases their risk.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=436568

To further correct the statistics it has to be factored in that a good chunk LLL.coms are already in the hands of trademark owners and not likely to be challenged. The 67 that have been lost is primarily from a population substantially smaller than the entire possible LLL combinations. It is from those owned primarily by domainers with questionable rights to the domains.

accent · 03-05-2008, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Juno

I'm new to the domain name business (2 weeks) and I'm sure there is a forum for people like me but since you are discussing cybersquatting, I thought I'd ask my two questions and see what advice you all can offer.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=436568

Question 1:
Problem: I registered some domain names that had, what I now believe, are trademarked names. I thought, when I registered them, that they were generic words like kleenex or bandaid. Now that I've read more online, I realize that they are probably trademarked. I've deleted all of those that still were within the deletion period but I'm stuck with the rest.

Solution? I don't see that there are any good solutions to my problem. Here are the options I see:

1) Contact the owner and offer to sell them--everything I've read says not to do this

If they are clearly trademarked domains of companies that average people would be aware of then you have a worthless asset - except: There is no harm in offering them to the company FOR THE PRICE THAT YOU PAID. A cybersquater is one who tries to extort a profit out of a trademarked name, if you are not trying to profit then you are not cybersquating. Be very clear that you are not trying to make a profit, that you did not understand about trademarks when you bought them.

Personally I would just let them expire, I expect most companies would ignore your email and a few would misunderstand and send a nastygram.

-REECE- · 03-05-2008, 04:12 PM

That's a very good point.

Honestly, I don't know why more people don't develop their LLL.coms... Spending what often amounts to 10k+ on a name only to lose it often because you were too cheap to develop it (eg. "no legitimate use")... I bet you could hire some college kid to do do the work for a couple hundred bucks.

Originally Posted by sdtrader

To further correct the statistics it has to be factored in that a good chunk LLL.coms are already in the hands of trademark owners and not likely to be challenged. The 67 that have been lost is primarily from a population substantially smaller than the entire possible LLL combinations. It is from those owned primarily by domainers with questionable rights to the domains.

snoop · 03-05-2008, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Reece

That's a very good point.

Honestly, I don't know why more people don't develop their LLL.coms... Spending what often amounts to 10k+ on a name only to lose it often because you were too cheap to develop it (eg. "no legitimate use")... I bet you could hire some college kid to do do the work for a couple hundred bucks.

Agree it was a good point, the number in domainers hands I am guess is probably 4000 or so, something like that.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=436568

In regards to the development spending a couple of hundred bucks per name as potential insurance from a UDRP sounds quite expensive in relation to the chance of actually losing one. I say "potential insuarance" because for the kind of site that is likely to be done for $200 (adsense + canned content) it may not really show much in the way of "legitimate interests" anyway.

-REECE- · 03-05-2008, 05:27 PM

Good point Snoop. I guess it depends on how big of a loss $10,000 is to someone... If I had 50+ LLL.coms, which I'm aware many people do, maybe I wouldn't be too worried about losing one or two.

If, on the other hand, someone had every single dollar they had made domaining invested in 1 or 2 LLL.coms, getting some kind of "insurance" might be worth it.

There are alot of college students out there in web design / graphic design type programs that would probably be willing to develop a site for well under minimum wage, just to be able to include it in their portfolio. Another option is to outsource the work to developing countries. There are some really good programmers in India who'll work for $5 USD an hour.

There's also the option of incorporating your domaining business using your LLL.com as your business name (that's what I'm doing). I haven't reviewed the WIPO cases regarding LLL.coms, but I'm willing to bet alot fewer were lost when the respondant was "LLL.com in question" Inc. Making a nice 5-10 page site out of your LLL.com (assuming you only have 1 here...), highlighting your portfolio, explaining your business, etc should be a good way to win a UDRP. They might not agree with your use of the LLL.com, but they certainly cannot say that it's being used in bad faith or that it's not a legitimate use when it's the online portal for an incorporated business

????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=436568

For my second LLL.com [RYI(.)com], I'm planning on building a mini-site about "researching your investments". It shouldn't be too hard to build a mini-site for just about any LLL.com (other than perhaps the real nasty XYZ stuff)in their spare time, with all the html software out there nowadays... Coming from an ex-WM, so maybe a little easier for me than other people.

Originally Posted by snoop

Agree it was a good point, the number in domainers hands I am guess is probably 4000 or so, something like that.

In regards to the development spending a couple of hundred bucks per name as potential insurance from a UDRP sounds quite expensive in relation to the chance of actually losing one. I say "potential insuarance" because for the kind of site that is likely to be done for $200 (adsense + canned content) it may not really show much in the way of "legitimate interests" anyway.

4LTR.org · 03-05-2008, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by snoop

Agree it was a good point, the number in domainers hands I am guess is probably 4000 or so, something like that.

In regards to the development spending a couple of hundred bucks per name as potential insurance from a UDRP sounds quite expensive in relation to the chance of actually losing one. I say "potential insuarance" because for the kind of site that is likely to be done for $200 (adsense + canned content) it may not really show much in the way of "legitimate interests" anyway.

????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=436568
1. ) If your a Noob website designer...

Before you pay $200 for someone to create a website for you the easiest way to get up a 20 page website is to use Google page creator. It's easy, free and there is no html, file uploading, etc.. All you have to know is how to point and click / copy and paste. They also have a help forum there to ask questions.

Once you've created all your empty pages go to a free article site and copy and paste relevant articles into your 20 page website. Next add some of your own content and link all your pages to your home page. In the right hand corner click save now and your done.

Last, forward your domain to your google site and don't forget domain masking. When someone types your domain name it will stay in the browser while they are visiting the pages hosted on Google. This will give you a basic free and easy website with no advertising on it.

2.) If you still can't handle making a website you could just use someone else's website. Simply point your domain name to an affiliate program you want to promote. Again use the masking feature so your name appears in the URL bar for the product. Place an adwords campaign telling people to go to your domain to buy the product. For added protection, create and print out some brochures with your domain name on it telling people to go to your domain name and purchase the product. This shows that your actively using your mark in commerce both online and offline.

3. ) If you have a really expensive domain, $10,000, etc.. Shell out $325 to protect it. Get a trademark in the most obvious unused classification. (Example: Just because someone is using cbi for banking, does not mean they have the right to use it for a directory.) You can do the whole process online at uspto.gov/teas Or, it may be cheaper in other countries? Also, when you sell your domain you can sell your trademark as well as they are transferable.

evirtual1 · 03-07-2008, 10:56 PM

i have never heard the term udrp ? .... please elaborate , thanks !

-REECE- · 03-08-2008, 12:20 AM

Uniform Domain Name Dispute Resolution Policy - Basically a cheap way for the real cybersquatters (aka large corporations) to steal domain names that you legitimately own for pennies. Saves them time and court costs.
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=436568

Originally Posted by evirtual1

i have never heard the term udrp ? .... please elaborate , thanks !

evirtual1 · 03-08-2008, 12:27 AM

hope this is nlt common ????? thanks for reply

-REECE- · 03-08-2008, 12:41 AM

You're welcome. Sadly it is somewhat common as Fonzie has discussed earlier in this thread.

The policy had some merit when it was put in place back in the day and helped prevent people from registering names like say, McDonalds.com and then trying to hold them ransom for big bucks...

Unfortunately it's really got out of hand lately and now a company which goes by an acronym (example: Japan Tobacco) are starting to win cases merely because the registrant acted in "bad faith", not because they're really more entitled to the name JT.com than about 100 other companies out there...
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=436568

It used to be a rare occurence in the early 2000s to see someone win a case like that unless it was really obvious that the person had registered the name in bad faith (as the JT.com case from 2000 seems to have been).

But that's no longer the case... From LLL.coms to LLL.mobis (remember inc.mobi everyone? ), if a big corporation wants your name, they now have the means to try and snatch it from you -- at very little cost to them. "Bad faith" is such a stupid and easily manipulated term... It can really mean whatever a panelist wants it to mean -- be that parking a domain, having a domain that's not developed, attempting to sell the domain to someone other than the person filing the udrp, attempting to sell the domain to the party that filed the udrp, ...

Snowe's Bill will only make the current situation even worse...

Originally Posted by evirtual1

hope this is nlt common ????? thanks for reply

evirtual1 · 03-08-2008, 02:18 AM

sounds like another good reason to get into numeric domains

fonzie_007 · 03-08-2008, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by Reece

(remember inc.mobi everyone? )

Now that was a terrible decision.

NameCharger · 03-10-2008, 11:50 AM

What about creating search/link directories on your LLL/LLLL?

Could this establish legitimate use?

DomainTalker · 03-12-2008, 09:46 PM

How do you 'not park' a domain?

(By 'not park' I mean have the domain NOT directed to a page with listed 'sponsor' sites on it....ie to show 'Good Faith' that you are not parking the LLL for revenue).

At your Registrar, you have to have a DNS for each domain...So, even if you do nothing, the Registrar will point it at a parking page.....And, any DNS you enter will direct it to a parked page, too.

So, how do you set things on a Domain that results in you owning a name, listed at a registrar - but its not 'parked'...?

.

snoop · 03-12-2008, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by DomainTalker

How do you 'not park' a domain?
????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=436568

(By 'not park' I mean have the domain NOT directed to a page with listed 'sponsor' sites on it....ie to show 'Good Faith' that you are not parking the LLL for revenue).

At your Registrar, you have to have a DNS for each domain...So, even if you do nothing, the Registrar will point it at a parking page.....And, any DNS you enter will direct it to a parked page, too.

So, how do you set things on a Domain that results in you owning a name, listed at a registrar - but its not 'parked'...?

.

Setup a redirect to a domain that cannot be registered, eg www.2.com

DomainTalker · 03-13-2008, 07:48 AM

Of course...Yes, clever...Thank you, snoop...

.

Pred · 03-13-2008, 07:55 AM

why not just redirect it?

just redirect to one of your developed sites like camera.mobi
may as well make the traffic for you, however small

-REECE- · 03-13-2008, 09:06 AM

Take a look at this case involving an LLLL.com guys: http://domains.adrforum.com/domains/...ns/1093845.htm

Parking whatsoever seems risky, regardless of whether ads (which you have no control over) of a competitor (and possible future complainant) are shown or not.

03-05-2008, 05:39 AM	#57 (permalink)
Juno First Time Poster! Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1	Help on inadvertent cybersquatting I'm new to the domain name business (2 weeks) and I'm sure there is a forum for people like me but since you are discussing cybersquatting, I thought I'd ask my two questions and see what advice you all can offer. Question 1: Problem: I registered some domain names that had, what I now believe, are trademarked names. I thought, when I registered them, that they were generic words like kleenex or bandaid. Now that I've read more online, I realize that they are probably trademarked. I've deleted all of those that still were within the deletion period but I'm stuck with the rest. Solution? I don't see that there are any good solutions to my problem. Here are the options I see: 1) Contact the owner and offer to sell them--everything I've read says not to do this 2) Park them--which is currently what I've done but which I now realize could be seen as cybersquatting and acting in "bad faith". ????: NamePros.com http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=436568 3) Have them lead to a blank page--I've discussed this with the register and if you don't direct your domains to parking service, the register parks them on their server. I've been unsuccessful getting them to direct incoming traffic to a blank page or an "Under Construction" page even though I've explained the situation. The only think I can think of is to change the DNS to some nonexistent server (that is, make up a name). 4) Sell them--which is what I badly want to do but which also could be seen as profiting off of a trademarked name. 5) Do nothing and let them expire--I'd be eating the cost of registering them but it is cheaper than a lawsuit. But, they won't expire for another 50 weeks! It seems like a lose-lose situation and I'm not sure what to do. I know that ignorance is not accepted as an excuse but I really didn't know I was doing anything wrong (the names incorporate the name of the product--like "AmericanIdolFans"--and are not simply the product name...which I now know doesn't make any difference). Your ideas on how to resolve this? Question 2: Are proper names (places, people) under the same rules are trademarked products and services? I see place names for sale but it would seem like these trademark rules would apply to all proper names. Thanks for any help you can offer. I realize this is an LLL.com discussion but I was led to this thread because of the topic and I hope someone might offer some advice any way. Thanks, in advance, for any help you all can offer!

03-07-2008, 10:56 PM	#64 (permalink)
evirtual1 NamePros Expert Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: VampireHire.Com Posts: 6,802	i have never heard the term udrp ? .... please elaborate , thanks ! __________________ Domain Name Investors Ebook ...perfect gift for the newbies Business Show Watch The Domainers Song Seeking serious offers .. F-X-T.com = Forex Trading

03-08-2008, 12:27 AM	#66 (permalink)
evirtual1 NamePros Expert Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: VampireHire.Com Posts: 6,802	hope this is nlt common ????? thanks for reply __________________ Domain Name Investors Ebook ...perfect gift for the newbies Business Show Watch The Domainers Song Seeking serious offers .. F-X-T.com = Forex Trading

03-08-2008, 02:18 AM	#68 (permalink)
evirtual1 NamePros Expert Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: VampireHire.Com Posts: 6,802	sounds like another good reason to get into numeric domains __________________ Domain Name Investors Ebook ...perfect gift for the newbies Business Show Watch The Domainers Song Seeking serious offers .. F-X-T.com = Forex Trading

03-12-2008, 09:46 PM	#71 (permalink)
DomainTalker Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: http://ISSUES.COM Posts: 1,126	How do you 'not park' a domain? (By 'not park' I mean have the domain NOT directed to a page with listed 'sponsor' sites on it....ie to show 'Good Faith' that you are not parking the LLL for revenue). At your Registrar, you have to have a DNS for each domain...So, even if you do nothing, the Registrar will point it at a parking page.....And, any DNS you enter will direct it to a parked page, too. So, how do you set things on a Domain that results in you owning a name, listed at a registrar - but its not 'parked'...? . __________________ NewMediaFrontiers.com® - ChatBox.com - Movie.info - Phone.me M.biz - Hypnotherapist.com - AJ.net - YT.net - iFlyDrive.com - iSofa.com

03-10-2008, 11:50 AM	#70 (permalink)
NameCharger Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,708	What about creating search/link directories on your LLL/LLLL? Could this establish legitimate use?

03-13-2008, 07:48 AM	#73 (permalink)
DomainTalker Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: http://ISSUES.COM Posts: 1,126	Of course...Yes, clever...Thank you, snoop... . __________________ NewMediaFrontiers.com® - ChatBox.com - Movie.info - Phone.me M.biz - Hypnotherapist.com - AJ.net - YT.net - iFlyDrive.com - iSofa.com

03-13-2008, 07:55 AM	#74 (permalink)
Pred Account Closed Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 6,713	why not just redirect it? just redirect to one of your developed sites like camera.mobi may as well make the traffic for you, however small

03-13-2008, 09:06 AM	#75 (permalink)
-REECE- NamePros Expert Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 8,996	Take a look at this case involving an LLLL.com guys: http://domains.adrforum.com/domains/...ns/1093845.htm Parking whatsoever seems risky, regardless of whether ads (which you have no control over) of a competitor (and possible future complainant) are shown or not.

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