Expired Domain Skimming by Registrars

YAYnames.com · Jun 30, 2008

Every domainer that intends to bid in a dropped domain name auction needs to be aware of the fact that some Registrars by their own admission skim the very best names.

Does that sound outrageous to you? It certainly does to me, but it's true. The funny thing is, they make no bones about it, and are completely unapologetic about it as well.

Not only that, but just because you win an auction and pay for the names at some houses doesn't mean that they won't decide after the auction's closed that they won't hand over the names. I know this sounds crazy, so don't take my word for it. Take a look at these related threads on respected industry leader Michael Berkens' blog that are a MUST READ for anyone participating in any drop auctions.

check this:
http://www.thedomains.com/2008/06/25/tucows-response-to-our-post-not-good-enough-and-heres-why

and this:
http://www.thedomains.com/2008/06/2...alled-out-yesterday-today-we-call-out-tucows/

Tucows recently reached an agreement with Afternic to auction expired names that are registered with them. So, if you plan on bidding on any of these names, you should definitely see the responses in the thread by Bill Sweetman, General Manager of Tucows Domain Portfolio, and understand that what you're bidding on is the crap that Tucows decided they didn't want.

If that doesn't seem right to you, maybe you should let the folks at ICANN know that you're not happy participating in a rigged game where registrars can skim the cream of the crop of expiring domain names.

.

Kate · Jul 11, 2008

flamewalker said:
No they aren't doing the same thing because domainers don't have direct access to the registry to snap up names before anyone else does. In many cases not even letting it go through its proper drop cycle.

Well domainers use dropcatchers that in turn set up or "hire" registrars just for the purpose of catching domains. So basically domainers are using the same resources.
Now if you are in entrepreneurial mood you can start your own registrar to get your feet wet

flamewalker · Jul 11, 2008

No... I don't have the capital or time to do that... or I would :p

MeanerDomainer · Jul 12, 2008

GREED is a very powerful force, stronger than even LUST in almost all cases.
Greed can win over the best of men, and it has NO trouble with the rest of them.
Regulations need to be put in place, and enforced, or greed will win.

tricolorro · Jul 13, 2008

strong said:
Also, what do you do about a company like Name Administration who is a domainer and a registrar ? Are they going to be considered to be warehousing domains ? They likely have the corporation for registrar and domain owners separated in legal terms but where is the line going to be drawn ?

Just for the record:

Name Administration,Inc is the Domainer.

Domain Name Sales Corp. is the Registrar for Name Administration domains.

See:
http://www.icann.org/registrars/accredited-list.html

Anyway...

There is a big difference between Tucows and other Registrars that skim expired domains registered by others for their own account and Name Administration domains regged at Domain Name Sales Corp.

All domains registered by Name Administration are regged by one entity.

Although Registrant and Registrar may be legally separate entities for all practical purposes they are one and the same.

There are no third party domains being skimmed.

Tucows and their ilk are surely in violation of the spirit of their Registrar Agreement with ICANN and they are sporting an unfair advantage skimming domains and preventing their re-entry into the domain marketplace.

It is surely a type of Unjust Enrichment.

:imho:

Patrick

PowerUp · Jul 16, 2008

This is why the rich gets richer (by buying the best income generating names for reg fee) and the poor gets poorer (by sometimes paying too much in an auction for crappy names). This happens everywhere (eg ebay deal with buy.com), not just in domain industry.

strong · Jul 17, 2008

tricolorro said:
Just for the record:

Name Administration,Inc is the Domainer.

Domain Name Sales Corp. is the Registrar for Name Administration domains.

See:
http://www.icann.org/registrars/accredited-list.html

Point taken

tricolorro said:
Anyway...

There is a big difference between Tucows and other Registrars that skim expired domains registered by others for their own account and Name Administration domains regged at Domain Name Sales Corp.

All domains registered by Name Administration are regged by one entity.

Although Registrant and Registrar may be legally separate entities for all practical purposes they are one and the same.

There are no third party domains being skimmed.

Tucows and their ilk are surely in violation of the spirit of their Registrar Agreement with ICANN and they are sporting an unfair advantage skimming domains and preventing their re-entry into the domain marketplace.

It is surely a type of Unjust Enrichment.

:imho:

Patrick

Who owns the 2 name admin companies ?
why do I ask ? If we set up new rules to say that registrars can't own domains or hoard the domains, all that will happen is the registrars will create a separate entity like Name Admin has done . . . then what happens ? More complaints and then ICANN makes a rule that the majority owner of a registrar can't own multiple domains even in a separate company? and then they work around that barrier and become a minority owner with his siblings as co-owners and then we ban the siblings and so on and on and on it goes.

Thus my comment on how do we actually police the rule if we set up the rule and how far do we go with the rule . Believe me I don't like the tucows stuff and they AREN'T alone. . . I think there's a much bigger registrar at it. Hard to prove though. Arent privacy services wonderful?

PowerUp · Jul 17, 2008

I think the solution is simple.
At the end of expiry, have the names transferred to an entity owned by an independent party like ICANN or whoever.
If the registrant wants to renew, then he pays a renewal fee plus the transfer fee to a registrar of his choice.
If the name's still not renewed after a certain period, then ICANN can hold a 3 day auction on the name (public or private auction).
If the name is not renewed and has no bidders, then the name goes through the delete phase.

What gives the registrar the rights to hold-on to expired names anyway, and renew them for themselves?

Ms Domainer · Jul 19, 2008

"At the end of expiry, have the names transferred to an entity owned by an independent party like ICANN or whoever."

I have the perfect domain for this new organization: ExpiryDomain.com

YAYnames.com · Jul 26, 2008

Calling all domainers who bid in name drop auctions!

The ICANN comment period ends on August 4th, and right now there are only a dozen or so comments telling ICANN to put an end to this garbage:

http://forum.icann.org/lists/raa-consultation/

If you don't want to bid on picked-over, pre-tasted CRAP NAMES, then you should add your voice by sending a quick email to this address:

[email protected]

Make sure to keep it respectful for maximum effectiveness. Tell ICANN to change the language of section 3.7.9 of the Registration Accreditation Agreement to:

"Absolutely prohibit domain name speculation and warehousing by registrars"

Dave_Z · Jul 26, 2008

YAYnames.com said:
Absolutely prohibit domain name speculation and warehousing by registrars

You still haven't defined either one.

YAYnames.com · Jul 27, 2008

Dave Zan said:
You still haven't defined either one.

This is how ICANN should define these terms, IMHO...

Warehousing: Registrar re-registers expired names in the Registrar's name rather than releasing them to either the available pool or auction.

Speculation: Profiting by the sale of a domain name in any other way than registration fee or auction of expired name.

.

YAYnames.com · Jul 28, 2008

Dave Zan said:
Registrars aren't required to offer domain registrations to end users the last I
checked, though many do so anyway.

That's exactly what they're required to do according to the RAA:

3. REGISTRAR OBLIGATIONS.

3.1 Obligations to Provide Registrar Services. During the Term of this Agreement, Registrar agrees that it will operate as a registrar for each TLD for which it is accredited by ICANN in accordance with this Agreement.

Full context here:

http://www.icann.org/registrars/ra-agreement-17may01.htm#3

Dave_Z · Jul 28, 2008

YAYnames.com said:
That's exactly what they're required to do according to the RAA:

3. REGISTRAR OBLIGATIONS.

3.1 Obligations to Provide Registrar Services. During the Term of this Agreement, Registrar agrees that it will operate as a registrar for each TLD for which it is accredited by ICANN in accordance with this Agreement.

Full context here:

http://www.icann.org/registrars/ra-agreement-17may01.htm#3

And does that say to whom it's obligated or required to provide services to?
Because if they're required to offer that to end users like us, then you ought
to tell that to Amazon, Google and Microsoft.

While at it, read the last 2 posts from this thread:

http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=439730
Enjoy.

YAYnames.com · Jul 28, 2008

Dave Zan said:
And does that say to whom it's obligated or required to provide services to?
Because if they're required to offer that to end users like us, then you ought
to tell that to Amazon, Google and Microsoft.

While at it, read the last 2 posts from this thread:

http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=439730
Enjoy.

I'm not sure I get your point. If it's that there are many registrars who are abusing both the letter and the spirit of the RAA, I wholeheartedly agree.

If you're defending this crap... not so much.

The point of the thread is to get domainers and anyone else with an interest in acquiring domain names with a modicum of fairness, to speak up and put some public pressure on ICANN to tighten the language of the Registration Accreditation Agreement to stop this anti-competitive nonsense.

central · Jul 28, 2008

YAYnames.com said:
Warehousing: Registrar re-registers expired names in the Registrar's name rather than releasing them to either the available pool or auction.

So you don't think it's OK for a registrar to renew (re-register) any domain in their own name, but you think it's OK for a registrar to renew (re-register) any domain into their auction partners name, just to let them auction off the domain name to the highest bidder?

central

YAYnames.com · Jul 28, 2008

central said:
So you don't think it's OK for a registrar to renew (re-register) any domain in their own name, but you think it's OK for a registrar to renew (re-register) any domain into their auction partners name, just to let them auction off the domain name to the highest bidder?

central

central, you make an excellent point! If the name has expired it should be dropped as you suggest.

In fact, I would much prefer an auction system that was not run by any registrar. This could be a great way for ICANN to create some revenue for themselves.

But I'm more concerned with the skimming by the registrar where suckers like us never get a chance at the names which the registrar has pre-tasted and transfers the registration to themselves.

.

central · Jul 28, 2008

YAYnames.com said:
If the name has expired it should be dropped as you suggest.

I'm not suggesting, I'm just asking questions.

What if you find a domain name scheduled to delete in a couple of days. You contact the registrant and make an agreement to acquire the domain name. The domain name is renewed and you're the new registrant. Would that be acceptable?

central

YAYnames.com · Jul 28, 2008

central said:
I'm not suggesting, I'm just asking questions.

Sorry, didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

central said:
What if you find a domain name scheduled to delete in a couple of days. You contact the registrant and make an agreement to acquire the domain name. The domain name is renewed and you're the new registrant. Would that be acceptable?

central

Everyone has the opportunity to make an offer to a current owner of a domain, I don't think anyone here would argue they shouldn't - I certainly wouldn't.

But that's a lot different than a registrar grabbing every name that is registered with them that expires, then tasting the name (parking it to see if it's profitable), or evaluating it for obvious commercial value and keeping it for themselves if they like it.

I think the only cost to the registrar is the 20 cents they pay ICANN, since they are the registrar (in other words they're not even paying 6 or 7 bucks like you or I).

This is a rigged game that's anti-competitive, IMHO.

The fact that no registrar representative is chiming in on this thread that's been stickied for a few weeks should tell you pretty clearly that they sure don't want to talk about it in public -- because it's indefensible.

.

central · Jul 28, 2008

YAYnames.com said:
Everyone has the opportunity to make an offer to a current owner of a domain, I don't think anyone here would argue they shouldn't - I certainly wouldn't.

I have to say I don't see any big differences here. When you register a domain name with one of these (often very cheap) registrars, you also agree that if you don't transfer out your domain name and, regardless of many warnings and notices, choose not to renew your domain name, your registrar, or a partner of your registrar, may free of charge acquire the domain name from you. It's not in any way an unfair agreement in my opinion. If you don't like it feel free to use another registrar who most likely is pretty expensive.

YAYnames.com said:
I think the only cost to the registrar is the 20 cents they pay ICANN, since they are the registrar (in other words they're not even paying 6 or 7 bucks like you or I).

http://www.icann.org/correspondence/bishop-to-twomey-05apr07.pdf
You will see another 7% increase in these prices in a couple of months. Also these prices are exclusive the ICANN fee.

central

YAYnames.com · Jul 28, 2008

central said:
I have to say I don't see any big differences here...

If you don't see the difference between making an offer for a domain to a private user, and registrars skimming hundreds of thousands of names at 20 cents each, I don't know what to tell you.

I think most of the folks bidding on the leftover garbage names that do get sent to auction by these guys might beg to differ, though.

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